Hoon drivers: is seizing vehicles enough?

[chrisb]

I think it’s 200 hours now in QLD for L platers before they can even take the test for a P plate.

200 hours?! So the good ones make mum and dad suffer through that, wasting time pointlessly driving around and the bad ones just have mum and dad lie on the log book. What a brilliant scheme.


I think the 2years without an offense before P's are removed is a good idea. The problem you're dealing with is that these are teens who like thrills - whether they drive for 100 or 1000 hours with mum and dad once they're on their own they'll do something stupid.

 

[Maca44]

Many posters prefer to keep their occupation (or past) confidential, but in relation to this topic I was in the Police for just over 26 years with all but 3 year as a Detective and without going into too much detail we had to be present at autopsies to take custody of exhibits etc from the Pathologist. Whilst at the morgue it always amazed me the number of mangled bodies were being booked in as a result of motor vehicle accidents, so maybe these hoons that drive around the streets at speed and endanger the lives of others could be ordered by the Courts to perform a certain number of hours at the admission section of the morgue. It would slow their driving down, but I doubt whether they would last at the job more than an hour.

 

[notzac]

Whilst at the morgue it always amazed me the number of mangled bodies were being booked in as a result of motor vehicle accidents, so maybe these hoons that drive around the streets at speed and endanger the lives of others could be ordered by the Courts to perform a certain number of hours at the admission section of the morgue.

I love it. As long as the 'certain number of hours' is north of 100.

 

[medhead]

, so maybe these hoons that drive around the streets at speed and endanger the lives of others could be ordered by the Courts to perform a certain number of hours at the admission section of the morgue. It would slow their driving down, but I doubt whether they would last at the job more than an hour.

An excellent suggestion.

More generally, on this topic, I should also confess to hoon-ish behaviour. But I only really had underpowered 4 cylinder cars to hoon in, so I really learnt how to get around quickly, generally within the confines of the law.

What I am often confronted with these days are annoying P plates, sitting in front of me obviously too nervous and not very road aware. Hoons or otherwise, that is the biggest danger IMO. I'd really like us to adopt a european approach to getting a drivers licence. Make it cost heaps ($1000 to $2000) and take a long time (2-3 years), but during that time they learn stuff. Unlike spending 100 hours driving mum to the shops.

Also once they have the licence focus the penalty on real traffic offences, so that they risk lossing that money and time for serious dangerous offences. Rather than, in the case of my BIL, who lost his P licence because of the points from doing a U-turn at traffic lights at about 3 am. Yes, it is illegal, but there was no one else around (besides the cop in the cop shop on that corner) to be endangered and he did the U-turn in a controlled and normal manner and hadn't been drinking. Yes, he was dumb to do an illegal uturn infront of a police station, but then there may also have been some race related factors in play.

But it is a difficult issue and to the OP, at one former industrial site, I know, the caretaker's approach to stopping burn outs on the concrete car park was to throw out hand fulls of old nails and screws. Maybe that might be useful for you.

 

[samh004]

What I am often confronted with these days are annoying P plates, sitting in front of me obviously too nervous and not very road aware. Hoons or otherwise, that is the biggest danger IMO.

Worse still is being in NSW and finding that P platers there can’t legally do the speed limit on motorways, so you’ll come flying down the road at 100KM/h and then be slowed down by a line of traffic backed up behind a P plater doing 90KM/h. 10KM/h really makes a difference on a long trip.

I'd really like us to adopt a european approach to getting a drivers licence. Make it cost heaps ($1000 to $2000) and take a long time (2-3 years), but during that time they learn stuff. Unlike spending 100 hours driving mum to the shops.

I’m not sure in a country as large as this with a public transport system between cities as bad as this, that making people pay more to get their license and thus drive around the country is a good idea.

I know in Northern Europe (can’t remember the country) part of the driving test is driving on a road course that allows for skidding and all sorts of dangerous driving conditions, so you know exactly what to do in the worst conditions.

Right now when you use your log book as a learner the first 10 hours with a proper driving instructor is counted at 3 times the rate. So 10 hours becomes 30 hours. Taking more time off for doing a driving course through dangerous driving conditions would probably be very beneficial.

 

[Hvr]

Let's look at other groups who cause trouble on the roads. D*ckheads in large 4wds who sit about 10cm behind cars doing the speed limit on a single lane road. Still they are fine upstanding members of the community and have a bit of political clout so can't touch them.

Older people who can't see past the windscreen and their top speed is 60kmh. I get a couple of these every week on the single lane 100 kmh bit of road i travel on daily. Again they have too much political clout to be able to deal with older people who cannot drive safely.

The middle aged woman who rear ended me recently when I was waiting to turn left, no insurance and didn't care. I do have insurance and my car was quickly repaired but it could have been nasty. She said she thought I was moving.

Again not a group you can abuse and treat like scum by taking their cars and crushing them. Fortunately we have young people who aren't considered equal members of society and we can introduce laws that directly penalise them and not us.

Surely the focus should be on bad driving and its causes. All of the examples above are generally ignored because it is too hard and close to home to deal with them.

Someone said dump hoon drivers in the middle of nowhere and let then find their own way home. Great until it is your child injured or killed trying to get home. Of course if you really want it then lobby for capital punishment and make sure you don't exempt your own children.

Real driver training is not considered a treatment for bad driving. Why not? Until we get over the 'pass the test mentality' we will always have bad drivers.

To get some really bad drivers off the road have a look at taxis. If the driver doesn't have a licence then the owner should lose their plates and pay a huge fine. They will soon care about who is on the cab rather than the money they make. A taxi is unroadworthy, well a month off the road for a first offence followed by forfeiture for a second offence would straighten them up.

Never happen because the taxi 'mafia' own politicians and no one will ever enforce laws against them. Taxis are our front line tourism ambassadors and should be held to a standard above scummy thieves. (apologies to at least one cabbie who posts here and keeps a great taxi but there are several of his fellow drivers who shouldn't be walking let alone driving).

Finally, why does anybody (apart from emergency services) need a vehicle that can exceed 120 kmh?

 

[medhead]

Real driver training is not considered a treatment for bad driving. Why not? Until we get over the 'pass the test mentality' we will always have bad drivers.

To get some really bad drivers off the road have a look at taxis. If the driver doesn't have a licence then the owner should lose their plates and pay a huge fine. They will soon care about who is on the cab rather than the money they make. A taxi is unroadworthy, well a month off the road for a first offence followed by forfeiture for a second offence would straighten them up.

Never happen because the taxi 'mafia' own politicians and no one will ever enforce laws against them. Taxis are our front line tourism ambassadors and should be held to a standard above scummy thieves. (apologies to at least one cabbie who posts here and keeps a great taxi but there are several of his fellow drivers who shouldn't be walking let alone driving).

And to your esxamples of bad drivers I would add the idiots here in South Australia, who like to totally ignore the road rules to be nice to people. Stop in the right hand lane to let someone turn right in front of your, but ignore that the left hand lane is travelling at 60 kph next to you!

I don't agree abot the taxi mafia. I just think that as with most parts of government it just isn't funded to actually enforce the rules. Plus most of the bad drivers/vehicles are probably operating out of a base by managers who don't care, but who the plate owner is trusting to do the right thing.

Finally, why does anybody (apart from emergency services) need a vehicle that can exceed 120 kmh?

Have you driven the Hay plain?
When you are crossing 30 to 50 km of gibber plain with nothing to see for miles, you will appreciate why a vehicle that can do more than 120 kph is useful.
Or when you want to get past a triple on some outback road. Those things are bloody long and it is dangerous to be on the other side of the road doing 110 kph when the triple is travelling at 100kph. This is a case when a quick kick up to 130 kph should be allowed.

 

[Hvr]

Or when you want to get past a triple on some outback road. Those things are bloody long and it is dangerous to be on the other side of the road doing 110 kph when the triple is travelling at 100kph. This is a case when a quick kick up to 130 kph should be allowed.

Good point and one I hadn't thought of when i posted, that's why there needs to be debate about changes required.

 

[mannej]

Here is my $0.02 on the issue.

Here in Perth, the government are fixated on policing road safety through multanova's. Easy to operate, easy to hide, easy to bring the money in. What they don't do is create any sort of presence on the road. At last count there were only 20-25 of these in the state. There needs to be more of a police presence on the road, as most astute drivers (yours truly included) knows where and when these mobile speed cameras are hidden.

The Road safety council chaired by Mr. Grant Dorrington has very little idea apart from speed cameras and punishing everyone in his towards zero plan. He has not looked into alternative ideas, apart from the above mentioned, as it is too hard, but in reality it is very narrow minded.

Technically speed does not kill, but that is not the point of the message, people who do speed are more likely to put themselves into risky situations. Deceleration (or the amount of force dissipated) is directly related to SPEED, the higher your speed, the more force you need to dissipate over the same distance, the more energy your body has to bear. I think the government's idea on speed tend to suggest that they are too lazy to do any research on the issue, but to totally dismiss speed as a factor is also irresponsible.

Yes I do agree that certain roads in Perth the speed limit is too low, i.e the freeway, but to compare the Mitchell/Kwinana Freeway to the Autobahn, is like comparing apples to oranges. If all the cars are traveling at close to the same speed the system works, but if you have cars traveling at significantly different speeds, and not expecting it, that is where the danger occurs. So yes the Autobahn has a high/unrestricted speed limit, but everyone driving on it is aware of that. That is not the case in Australia, and it causes danger when people pull out in front of some one traveling well in excess of the speed limit. That is why you can not compare the two.

The problem I find with all these suggestions is that they punish on restrictions much more than rewarding good driving. Why punish the majority of safe P-Plate drivers? When on my P's, if I went through the 2 year period without a blemish on my driving record, I would get the first year for free on my full license. The only problem is that this program is not very widely publicised currently, which is a pity.

As for increasing Log Book hours etc etc, in terms of motor control principles, it does not lead to better drivers, it just means that they are more likely to pick up bad habits that their parents/siblings etc have. Go ahead and subsidise advanced/defensive driver courses, as it is this sort of thing that will help one react to an emergency situation when it presents itself. Pilots have simulators for this reason. It may never happen to you but it is always good to have the ability to be able to react accordingly.

Now this is where I believe the problem lies with our drivers, no one takes responsibility for their own short comings. People like to place the blame on other groups. P-platers think they can drive, and old people can't and v.v. There are good drivers, and bad drivers in every group. Experience does not necessarily equate to better driving skills. Apart from the fact that the human brain starts to deteriorate from 40 yrs onwards, some people just do not have the ability to predict adverse traffic situations, and plan to avoid them. They come across all age, race, gender groups. Focusing on one group and labeling them all as bad drivers is wrong, as you can see it across all groups (and not just limited to younger drivers).

I think there is no easy answer to this question, but coming from Perth I do appreciate that hoons get off lightly. There needs to be more police presence on the road, and a change of policy from the Road Safety Council/Government on how they police road safety (i.e speed cameras just dont cut it as safety devices). Most of the problem is driver attitude, and this is not limited to young drivers. Most drivers drive responsibly, and do the right thing, but it is those who disregard the speed and road rules who cause the problems for everyone else.

 

[medhead]

Good point and one I hadn't thought of when i posted, that's why there needs to be debate about changes required.

Actually this reminds me of the time I almost took out a motorcycle cop on an outback road. The one time I overtook the proper way, at the speed limit, indicate for a while before moving, travel some distance before moving back indicating the whole way. Anyway, my boss in the passenger seat was getting a bit excited, so I cut the exercise in legal overtaking short and cut back onto the left side of the road. 3 seconds later the motorcycle cop goes past :shock:. I didn't see him at all, midday sun glare and all. But the idiot was out trying to catch people speeding, no head light on :!:, with a cop car about 3 kms behind him.

 

[medhead]

The Road safety council chaired by Mr. Grant Dorrington has very little idea apart from speed cameras and punishing everyone in his towards zero plan. He has not looked into alternative ideas, apart from the above mentioned, as it is too hard, but in reality it is very narrow minded.

Technically speed does not kill, but that is not the point of the message, people who do speed are more likely to put themselves into risky situations. Deceleration (or the amount of force dissipated) is directly related to SPEED, the higher your speed, the more force you need to dissipate over the same distance, the more energy your body has to bear. I think the government's idea on speed tend to suggest that they are too lazy to do any research on the issue, but to totally dismiss speed as a factor is also irresponsible.

Your comments regarding these road safety councils are spot on and also about speed niot killing. I'm a bit lazy adn use speed doesn't kill as short hand for my ideas. Basically, it should be drive to the road conditions, but a rigid speed limit doesn't account for the fact that some road conditions suggest driving faster than the speed limit. I'm sure we all know a bit of road that was engineered for 60 kph, but that now has a 50 kph limit. Anyone who has driven Brisbane to Gold coast would agree that the speed limit there could also be 130 kph, if only we could uzi the idiots out of the right hand lane. But even that is no autobahn.

Another thing that the autobahn doesn't have is kangaroos and emus and camels and wombats.

 

[mannej]

To add onto your last post Medhead, roads are engineered to Australian Standards which states that they need to be engineered to handle a speed x over the speed limit. So what I see with that is the government/road safety council uses speed is dangerous as a cop out to lower speed limits and make it look like they are doing something to curb the road toll.

Road safety is a complicated issue, and I don't feel that we have the right people in the job...

 

[harvyk]

Road safety is a complicated issue, and I don't feel that we have the right people in the job...

mannej, I know we don't have the right people for the job of road safety. I've met a few of them and yes they really are braindead idiots.

I myself have a high powered car, and I would love to see me having to have a special license to both own and drive that car.

I know that if I press a little too far on the right pedal the car will go from zero to wrapped around a tree in only a few seconds. As such I went to advance driver training days to learn how to drive it properly.

The problem with the duf duf bridge is they buy these cars, without much experience (no I would never lend my car to my 18 year old self) make modifications which are not always safe (I've seen a "lowered" car which had trouble getting around an intersection at half the speed any other roadworthy car could do) and the most dangerous thing is that is that they are oftan trying to impress their mates. Trust me on that, I've been for a drive with a mate who thought sideway at 130 in a surburban area with kids running around was cleaver, needless to say I have never hopped into the car with the guy again.

The problem is that these guys (and girls) are getting into high powered cars after only experiences with low powered cars and don't understand or respect them.

As for why I want a car which can break every speed limit in the country in only a few seconds, well it's fun to drive, especially around tracks (and on cruises and trips (especially o'nighters) with other like minded owners ). The way I see it is the car is one of my hobbies.