How flexible is fully flexible?

[reductionist]

I don't often purchase these fares so it doesn't really apply to me. It's sounding an awful lot like these "fully flexible" fares are actually only "mostly flexible".

It reminds me of broadband providers who advertise their services as "unlimited" when they're actually not. The ACCC has come down on these guys quite hard recently. I wonder why these "fully flexible" fares haven't come to their attention.

Perhaps a different scenario since broadband providers tend to lock customers in for 24+ months, but you get the idea.

 

[anat0l]

It's a bit of a silly distinction overall, since technically any ticket - irrespective of fare - can be changed.

It's just that it costs different amounts depending on the set of conditions you purchased originally. (Some are more perverted and probably don't count as a "change", e.g. a red e-Deal can't be changed on the same day as departure; essentially you need to buy a new ticket and forfeit the old one).

As for the broadband "unlimited" thing, it wasn't that it wasn't unlimited per se, it's just that it wasn't unlimited if you wanted the same quality of service throughout (i.e. same download speed). But that distinction was enough for the ACCC to rule that was misleading, as it were.

In a sense, saying some things are unlimited is rather misleading in many senses and at best is just risky. Even something like UA in the United States claiming "unlimited free upgrades" is misleading by itself. Sure, it is qualified later that it depends on fare class and availability (e.g. if there are 7 1Ks and only 5 seats in F, 2 people are going to miss out, even though all of them are entitled to "free upgrades without limit", as it were). Thankfully UA don't have to worry about the ACCC (since upgrades on international flights are not unlimited).


Back on topic, only Qantas uses the term "Fully Flexible" for their said fare (and only one of them). You could poke holes in this by saying that it's not quite fully flexible, i.e. if there are no Economy seats on the flight you want, you can't change to it, even though "fully flexible" implies you can choose when to fly whenever you like. More precise is probably the problem that you can only change to a seat in the same or lower inventory, otherwise you'll pay a fare difference.

The other uses of the word "flexible" in other airlines is usually not qualified as "fully flexible", just "flexible", i.e. it doesn't tell you to what degree it is flexible, but there is some flexibility built into it (e.g. the ability to change your flight on the same day as departure without buying a new ticket). Moreover, the word is usually put in names as "Flex" or "Flexi", further implying that the word exists only as a name and not as an explicit definition. I know, I know - you can't rely on what people should or would think versus what they do think....

And look, it probably doesn't help when the marketing department make a foot-in-mouth error like printing an ad saying "Book with a Flexi Fare and fly whenever you want - no added fees!*". Alright I accidentally switched the font sizes...

 

[pshepvic]

I guess being able to cancel something when you "change your mind" AFTER you were due to use it is a pretty sweet deal.

As far as conditions around it no longer being flexible if you have checked in - well I guess they have the right to do that, because by checking in you are effectively saying "yes I will be there". If you haven't checked in online, and aren't at the airport by the check in cut off, it's much easier to move someone on standby to the flight, than finding out that you have failed to board at departure time and the seat will then definitely be empty. If you turn up later, then hopefully they might have moved someone on standby to your seat on the earlier flight, and then there will be a seat for you on the later one.

It's a fair T&C but I guess one that most of us probably didn't realise was there - so yeah I guess the ACCC could look at the definition of Flexible being a little clearer.

So then ignoring the check in conditions, the "flexibility" of being able to not show for a flight but still get your money back, is still quite good for the consumer. You couldn't take out a broadband service, then if you don't use it for a month ask for a refund.

 

[N860CR]

For interests sake, I booked the fully flex the night before and checked in right away. About 2 hours before departure it was blindingly obvious that I wouldn't come close to making it.

Quick call to QF:
- "Hello, I need to cancel a ticket I have for travel tonight"
- "Ok, that's your Tsv-cns? Fully flexible so I'll refund it onto your card."
- "thanks"

Efficient to the point of being overly blunt! Received an email the next day advising that it'll be back on my card within 72 hours.

Certainly good to know that flexibility exists if you want to pay for it.

 

[m_ratt]

FWIW, Virgin Blue do not allow you to cancel if you have checked in online.

Is that only for online checkin?

I had an experience where I was able to check in (in person), drop baggage, head to lounge, have food and drink, cancel checkin, retrieve baggage and purchase a ticket on Qantas instead.
Admittedly this was on the day last year that DJ's systems were nonfunctional and everything was done manually, but DJ staff were quite happy to offload me, and I received a full refund (minus CC fee).

 

[pshepvic]

Is that only for online checkin?

I had an experience where I was able to check in (in person), drop baggage, head to lounge, have food and drink, cancel checkin, retrieve baggage and purchase a ticket on Qantas instead.
Admittedly this was on the day last year that DJ's systems were nonfunctional and everything was done manually, but DJ staff were quite happy to offload me, and I received a full refund (minus CC fee).

From what I understand, it is for any check-in. The "reasoning" I guess is that once you have checked in, you have effectively confirmed you will be on the flight. If you don't board, then it is considered a "failure to board", and hence you lose the fare. If you hadn't checked in, at 15min prior to departure they would assume you were a no show, and potentially be able to move a standby to the earlier flight (and therefore if the flights are quite full, move you to the next flight with your not-checked-in-flexible-fare).

If you have checked in, they can't definitely be sure you are not there until they have paged you, and then closed the doors. Then it is a seat they can't re-sell or use at all, and therefore lost revenue.

I think the day you are talking about was probably an exception - I'm sure they would have sent as many people to other airlines as they possibly could.

Check in staff do have the discretion to make an exception to this rule for Gold frequent flyers (and maybe Silver, not sure).

 

[JohnPhelan]

I think commonsense has to come into play here. Once you have checked in - and it doesn't matter whether this is OLCI, or at the airport - you have confirmed that you will be getting on the aircraft. End of story. If there's doubt about whether you will get to the airport on time - then don't use OLCI !!

The airline needs to have some degree of certainty about how many seats are occupied, and how many they can still sell (or move other pax into, if necessary).

There has to be some defined point at which you can't cancel and get your money back/change flights. If people think OLCI should not be binding on them to actually board the flight, then where do you suggest the line be drawn?

If you have checked in at the airport, should you be able to pull out and get a refund/flight change prior to the close of baggage acceptance? Or prior to boarding?

What happens if you are on the aircraft, door still open, and you decide you want to get off - refund then? Or if the door has closed but aircraft hasn't pushed back? There has to be a 'point of no return'.

Turning up 10 minutes after the flight has departed, when you had already checked-in, and then expecting to get a refund/change, is just unreasonable.

It's one thing for us to expect airlines to show us flexibility; it's quite another for us to treat the airlines with contempt and expect them to abandon responsible business practices and fit in with our whims ....

 

[pshepvic]

I think commonsense has to come into play here. Once you have checked in - and it doesn't matter whether this is OLCI, or at the airport - you have confirmed that you will be getting on the aircraft. End of story. If there's doubt about whether you will get to the airport on time - then don't use OLCI !!

The airline needs to have some degree of certainty about how many seats are occupied, and how many they can still sell (or move other pax into, if necessary).

There has to be some defined point at which you can't cancel and get your money back/change flights. If people think OLCI should not be binding on them to actually board the flight, then where do you suggest the line be drawn?

If you have checked in at the airport, should you be able to pull out and get a refund/flight change prior to the close of baggage acceptance? Or prior to boarding?

What happens if you are on the aircraft, door still open, and you decide you want to get off - refund then? Or if the door has closed but aircraft hasn't pushed back? There has to be a 'point of no return'.

Turning up 10 minutes after the flight has departed, when you had already checked-in, and then expecting to get a refund/change, is just unreasonable.

It's one thing for us to expect airlines to show us flexibility; it's quite another for us to treat the airlines with contempt and expect them to abandon responsible business practices and fit in with our whims ....

Totally agree with you - it's just that from the experience we've all had with Qantas, we made the assumption (wrongly) that Fully Flexible meant you can cancel after departure, irrespective of check in.

However, we've since found that Virgin has a different policy, and yes in my case where I turned up after departure having used OLCI, it was my fault for not reading the fine print. I don't disagree with the policy, I just wasn't aware of it. I was lucky that they are able to waive the conditions for Gold Velocity members.

And as I said, from now on I definitely won't use OLCI if I think there is a chance I won't make it to the airport. That's where I'd like to see DJ bring in advance seat selection ... but that's a whole other topic! (Although at T-24 you can still select a seat without checking in).

 

[N860CR]

Good to see this made the front page, but I've been posting here for nearly 7 years so the term "newbie" might have been a little off!!