Improbable offer for a changed flight

[NM]

It also proves that the earth is flat.

Come on now, we all know the earth is not flat.

It has quite a lot of bumps around the edges ... otherwise all the water would flow off the sides.

 

[NM]

There isn’t a QF lounge at PER T1 anymore but the EK lounge is supposed to be solid.

But they would be arriving into PER, so lounge at PER is not relevant to the decision.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Until you realise the SCs are a fraction of what you expected!

Supposing the MH flights ticket out as some business fare, that corresponds with a Flexible Economy earning rate, which is still substantial at 80 SCs each way between PER and SYD (50 for PER > KUL and 30 for SYD > KUL). If they were a PC member they would earn 56 SCs on the QF flights (38 for PER > MEL and 18 for MEL > SYD). Whilst it's true you could potentially get creative with those routings, you would be hard pressed to find a better itinerary than MH. Also, I would argue international flights are a lot more fun and better in terms of lounges, on-board service, catering, etc.

As an aside, this should also serve as yet another example of how all these "taxes and fees," the airlines collect from us are completely optional in the sense that if push comes to shove the airline will gladly gobble it up!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I wonder if there are any cabotage issues with those offerings?

I do like QF's new rebooking system, but someone seems to have forgotten to exclude options via other countries on purely domestic itineraries.

Good pick up. It is a cabotage issue!

Post automatically merged: Aug 23, 2023

Does cabotage apply to award bookings? The OP’s original booking appears to be a classic reward.

Yes. It applies to awards. The most (in)famous case being GUM-TYO-LAX on a Lifemiles award, which the operating airline refused to honour as it would breach cabotage.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Cabotage is a fairy tale governments tell their citizens. It simply doesn't exist. How can you say for certain that a given routing operating from an origin in a given country to another destination in the same country (via a third country) is cabotage? In the case of the EK option, one could certainly argue that it is a legitimate routing. For instance, if you had to meet a colleague in DXB before heading back to SYD then is that really cabotage? Where do we draw the line here (if one can even be drawn)?

-RooFlyer88

Cabotage has little to do with citizens, and everything to do with economics. Governments and local airlines protecting revenues and economic interests… they don’t want foreign carriers transporting pax on domestic itineraries. Which is fair enough.

It doesn’t matter if the passenger isn't *intending* to fly domestic, the airline usually won’t have the legal right to sell a ticket to transport a passenger between two points in the same country. You could insert a stopover however. Then your business traveller can fly via Dubai.

There are some notable exceptions, like the EU, where all member states are permitted to fly anywhere. And Australia and New Zealand. But otherwise it’s relatively rare, and can get airlines fined for breaching their obligations. Airlines aren’t willing to risk that.

 

[TheInsider]

ok… Why strange? …. Perth - Dubai - Sydney is a perfectly normal routing for most passengers travelling PER - SYD.

It's Qantas IT. Not strange at all!
Sorry should've put a sarcastic thing there.

 

[Freq Flier 2013]

If I had the time, I’d click the SYD-KUL-PER option in Business just for fun.

I would do it

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I wonder if the OP waits a little longer if there will be even more interesting offers available. Surely eventually Qantas' IT will give them an offer they can't refuse!

Cabotage has little to do with citizens, and everything to do with economics. Governments and local airlines protecting revenues and economic interests… they don’t want foreign carriers transporting pax on domestic itineraries. Which is fair enough.

It doesn’t matter if the passenger isn't *intending* to fly domestic, the airline usually won’t have the legal right to sell a ticket to transport a passenger between two points in the same country. You could insert a stopover however. Then your business traveller can fly via Dubai.

But then the question is what is considered a stopover versus a layover. I know IATA rules state that for international itineraries anything under 24 hours is considered a connection whereas anything more and you've got a stopover. But again, I think intent has to play a role here. Certainly for cross border travel in Canada/USA it is not unheard of to fly from Toronto to New York for a business meeting early morning then fly to Vancouver for a meeting later that day. Would that be cabotage?

-RooFlyer88

 

[SYD]

But they would be arriving into PER, so lounge at PER is not relevant to the decision.

The comment was in relation to @kangarooflyer88 checking out the QF lounge on the PER-DXB-SYD option.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I wonder if the OP waits a little longer if there will be even more interesting offers available. Surely eventually Qantas' IT will give them an offer they can't refuse!

But then the question is what is considered a stopover versus a layover. I know IATA rules state that for international itineraries anything under 24 hours is considered a connection whereas anything more and you've got a stopover. But again, I think intent has to play a role here. Certainly for cross border travel in Canada/USA it is not unheard of to fly from Toronto to New York for a business meeting early morning then fly to Vancouver for a meeting later that day. Would that be cabotage?

-RooFlyer88

And this is where it starts to get complicated, and the differences between a valid round trip, open jaw, and cabotage.

Air canada can fly you the above itinerary no issue. United or another US carrier *may* be able to do it, depending on whether it’s considered a valid reason to enter the USA, and the reason for travelling via the USA is not simply to connect between two canadian cities.

If you try to fly USA-Canada-USA, Air canada sometimes gives you a warning saying it must be a minimum of a four hour stopover. (Which I guess is why domestic stopovers are often only four hours in the usa/canada, but 24 hours outside of nth america?)

It gets complicated because there are reports that some airlines will sell you a ticket that would otherwise breach cabotage rules, but that doesn’t actually mean you get to fly. Check-in may prevent you doing so if they suspect a breach. Note too that transborder flights require US customs clearance, and US customs officers are legally required to report possible breaches of cabotage.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Air canada can fly you the above itinerary no issue. United or another US carrier *may* be able to do it, depending on whether it’s considered a valid reason to enter the USA, and the reason for travelling via the USA is not simply to connect between two canadian cities.

If you try to fly USA-Canada-USA, Air canada sometimes gives you a warning saying it must be a minimum of a four hour stopover. (Which I guess is why domestic stopovers are often only four hours in the usa/canada, but 24 hours outside of nth america?)

Air Canada will also gladly sell you United tickets (with UA flight numbers) for Canada-USA-Canada. Sometimes it's even cheaper to book via AC than UA due to plating quirks. Yes you absolutely do get a warning for using such itineraries.

It gets complicated because there are reports that some airlines will sell you a ticket that would otherwise breach cabotage rules, but that doesn’t actually mean you get to fly. Check-in may prevent you doing so if they suspect a breach. Note too that transborder flights require US customs clearance, and US customs officers are legally required to report possible breaches of cabotage.

The real arbiter of what is valid or not would be the CBP officer at the airport. Remember, Canada is different from elsewhere since US immigration and customs is pre-cleared at airports meaning you don't have to fly to the US to get a decision on admissibility. Heck you don't even need a passport to fly between the two countries if you are Canadian/American and have a Nexus card since that is considered a valid travel document within the region and can be used for boarding (I use it all the time since it's much easier to grab a plastic card out of the wallet versus a passport out of the backpack and thumbing through to the data page). Ultimately, it is the CBP officer asking you questions (if you do have to speak with one) who will determine legitimacy. CBSA officers generally don't care, especially if you are Canadian, just ask fellow Canadians of our favourite past time, shopping in the US then coming back saying we've got nothing to declare.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Air Canada will also gladly sell you United tickets (with UA flight numbers) for Canada-USA-Canada. Sometimes it's even cheaper to book via AC than UA due to plating quirks. Yes you absolutely do get a warning for using such itineraries.

The real arbiter of what is valid or not would be the CBP officer at the airport. Remember, Canada is different from elsewhere since US immigration and customs is pre-cleared at airports meaning you don't have to fly to the US to get a decision on admissibility. Heck you don't even need a passport to fly between the two countries if you are Canadian/American and have a Nexus card since that is considered a valid travel document within the region and can be used for boarding (I use it all the time since it's much easier to grab a plastic card out of the wallet versus a passport out of the backpack and thumbing through to the data page). Ultimately, it is the CBP officer asking you questions (if you do have to speak with one) who will determine legitimacy. CBSA officers generally don't care, especially if you are Canadian, just ask fellow Canadians of our favourite past time, shopping in the US then coming back saying we've got nothing to declare.

The bottom line is that cabotage is an issue. Complex as it is, it can catch passengers out.

Surprised QF is suggesting such an itinerary, but a mattg points out it’s probably an error, given QF would be one of the first jumping up and down if it was allowed.

I remember a few years ago when West Coast made the AFL grand final… flights sold out, people were suggesting they could fly via Singapore. That’s exactly the type of thing cabotage rules are designed to stop.

 

[oz_mark]

I remember a few years ago when West Coast made the AFL grand final… flights sold out, people were suggesting they could fly via Singapore. That’s exactly the type of thing cabotage rules are designed to stop.

I don't believe it has ever been raised as an issue. Even back in the days of the two-airline policy, folk from Perth would travel via Singapore as it was often cheaper.
I don't believe that cabotage is designed to stop that. It is to stop a foreign airline picking up passengers in say Perth, and flying them across to Melbourne.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I don't believe it has ever been raised as an issue. Even back in the days of the two-airline policy, folk from Perth would travel via Singapore as it was often cheaper.
I don't believe that cabotage is designed to stop that. It is to stop a foreign airline picking up passengers in say Perth, and flying them across to Melbourne.

Yes, it stops foreign airlines flying pax say PER-MEL, but as per the discussion above, it also prevents a single continuous ticket between two domestic cities in the one country by a foreign airline. With some exceptions noted above such as the EU and AU/NZ.

Asiana got in trouble with cabotage for saipan-USA via Seoul. Similarly GUM-USA via tokyo ran into trouble.

You can still travel via SIN, but you’d need a break or stop in the journey to make it legal. For example what Air Canada does above.

Cabotage makes it illegal for the ticket to be sold. Not for the passenger to actually travel. However the complication for the passenger is that the airline may prevent travel if it thinks it’s going to get fined.

 

[serfty]

MH122 on 7/1/24 doesn’t seem to be available as a classic award. I wonder if the system would make it available and issue ticket.

They don't alway "create' award availability.

Sometimes such disruption and subsequent rerouting have these reissued into revenue fare buckets - it happened to me last year.

I believes it is the "lowest available fare bucket in the cabin" type of thing.

Another rerouting due to cancellation I have coming up with the entire booking originally O class has one segment now in Y class (i.e. "Full" Economy).

 

[NM]

In regards to Cabotage, the airlines do take it seriously as they can be fined for breaches. But sometimes an itinerary can slip through there system.

Many years ago I was traveling on a DONE4 fare. I arrived into the USA on CX from HKG, and my exit from the USA was a week later LAX-JFK-LHR, taking the QF B744 LAX-JFK with a direct connection to LHR on BA. So technically the QF flight LAX-JFK was purely domestic in the USA and breached the terms under which QF operated the flight. Nobody had picked up the issue until the LAX-JFK flight had departed. Upon landing at JFK I was met at the aircraft door by the QF Station Manager who was keen to understand how I had managed to get the itinerary issued.

The QF Station Manager explained the "breach" and noted that if I had arrived into the USA on a QF flight, it would have been ok, even with stopover in LAX. But since I had arrived on CX, they were not permitted to carry me LAX-JFK, but of course if was all too late to change it by the time I arrived at JFK.

I have no idea if any fine or reprimand resulted. My ticket was issued by our corporate travel agent so was not my fault (even though I had specifically requested the flight combinations). I did enjoy the QF 744 upper deck for the LAX-JFK trans-continental service, and earned more SCs than I would have by taking the direct BA service from LAX-LHR. Come to think of it, I was actually traveling DFW-LHR (via LAX and JFK). Why travel direct when you can connect for maximum value of a DONE4 fare - I had the whole weekend to get from USA to UK .

So if you can get the ticket SYD-KUL-PER issued, there is a good chance it will be honoured and not identified as an issue. If it is picked up before departure, than technically QF would need to find another way to get you to your destination, but that may not end well in terms of timely transport.

 

[shuuy]

Canada - USA - Canada or USA - Canada - USA tickets with no stopovers is Cabotage and can't be ticketed (ie system does not compute). Not sure that's 'fairy tale' level

Cabotage is a fairy tale governments tell their citizens. It simply doesn't exist. How can you say for certain that a given routing operating from an origin in a given country to another destination in the same country (via a third country) is cabotage?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Canada - USA - Canada or USA - Canada - USA tickets with no stopovers is Cabotage and can't be ticketed (ie system does not compute). Not sure that's 'fairy tale' level

Definitely can be done. Here's one example with UA:

 

[bcworld]

Would PER-DXB-SYD actually ticket? Cabotage aside...there is such a thing as maximum permitted mileage! I appreciate that given the antiquated nature of a lot of airline systems that may be checked by a human with a calculator!

 

[NM]

Would PER-DXB-SYD actually ticket? Cabotage aside...there is such a thing as maximum permitted mileage! I appreciate that given the antiquated nature of a lot of airline systems that may be checked by a human with a calculator!

Does MPM apply if its considered Irregular Operations (IROPS)?

Obviously could be booked as a "return" flight, but MPM could come into play if its the return leg of an overall PER-SYD-PER fare.