In the company of cowards [re: David Hicks]

[jukebox333]

Personally I think that everyone including the media are avoiding the REAL big issues;

Did he get miles and SC on his trips to/from Gitmo?

I'm thinking that TR would be a bit of a downer...

 

[drron]

Medhead you should read up on the Kosovo Liberation army which Hicks was in prior to Afghanistan.
Evidence that they were supported by Iran and that some of Osama bin Laden's associates also served with them.This was prior to 9/11.
At least one of the leaders of the KLA was convicted in the Hague of war crimes-particularly the torture of prisoners under his control.
And why then did Hicks go to Afghanistan after he heard of 9/11?

And torture is a straw man.There is definitely no link with feeling David Hicks is not a nice fellow and that meaning you support torture.
A bit like that idiot John Birmingham suggesting that people not supporting the 2 Bali nine fellows on death row are racist because they are not white.
I remember Barlow and Chambers who were hung by the Malaysians for carrying 2% of the heroi_ the Bali Nine were carrying.They were both white yet only 10% of Australians at the time thought they should be spared the death penalty.

 

[Hvr]

Having read Michael Mori's book it is clear that the Americans quickly realised that Hicks was a nobody who hadn't done much if anything wrong. Indeed the American's tried to get Howard to take Hicks back but were refused several times.

One of the features of a democracy is the right to a fair trial based on the laws at the time the alleged illegal acts were committed. Basically Howard abandoned an Australian citizen and supported his being tortured for their own political ends.

Again in Mori's book, he outlines how the prosecution changed the rules every time they realised that their stacked trial process couldn't even make up offences that may have been committed.

 

[JessicaTam]

[mod hat]
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[/mod hat]

 

[medhead]

Medhead you should read up on the Kosovo Liberation army which Hicks was in prior to Afghanistan.
Evidence that they were supported by Iran and that some of Osama bin Laden's associates also served with them.This was prior to 9/11.
At least one of the leaders of the KLA was convicted in the Hague of war crimes-particularly the torture of prisoners under his control.
And why then did Hicks go to Afghanistan after he heard of 9/11?

And torture is a straw man.There is definitely no link with feeling David Hicks is not a nice fellow and that meaning you support torture.
A bit like that idiot John Birmingham suggesting that people not supporting the 2 Bali nine fellows on death row are racist because they are not white.
I remember Barlow and Chambers who were hung by the Malaysians for carrying 2% of the heroi_ the Bali Nine were carrying.They were both white yet only 10% of Australians at the time thought they should be spared the death penalty.

Again nothing you've written justifies torture. There are plenty of posts in this thread that say Hicks got every thing he deserves. That sure as hell does support his treatment which included torturing.

As for strawmen, bali9? Barrow and chambers. Completely irrelevant. Especially considering the Australian government didn't dump those people to be tortured and subject to a kangaroo court. To even try to pretend their is any relevancy is a massive strawman.

But I expect little better. The neocons have dragged us into a place where we are no better than the those who attack us. I am disgusted in politicians who justify this rubbish.

Just remember that Hicks was torture an held in a small box for almost twice as long as those force to work on the Burma Thai railway. To dare suggest anyone deserves such treatment is poor form.

And here's some homework for you: Find out when hicks went to afghanistan, as in the real date, and compare that on a timeline to 9 September 2001.

 

[medhead]

He's absolute scum and should never have been allowed back into Australia.

An Australia citizen should be made stateless?

 

[drron]

Medhead Hicks was in Pakistan before 9/11.He describes firing at indian soldiers in Kashmir.
When he heard about 9/11 he went to Afghanistan.He had been to training camps there before 9/11 as well.
He was captured by the Northern alliance in December 2001 in Afghanistan.So what's your point?Nowhere have I said he fought against Australians.But those fighting the Northern Alliance were the Taliban.
The first soldiers of our SASR were deployed to Afghanistan in October 2001.So Hicks was associated with those fighting our soldiers even though he didn't.

The comment about Barlow and Chambers was in the context of the John Birmingham article in Fairfax-
Blunt Instrument: The racism of not caring
He sets up the strawman linking attitudes of Australians not supporting the Bali nine as racism.Barlow and Chambers as I said were white and only supported by 10% of Australians at the time of their execution.
He uses the same tactics as you.Take peoples criticism of David Hicks as proof that they support torture when that is definitely far from the truth.

I noted in your deleted post that you compared the fate of David Hicks to that of Australian POWs on the Burma railway and Changi saying his period of incarceration was much longer.I have met and talked to many ex POWs from Changi and the death railway.Their stories are much more horrific than that of David Hicks.

 

[amaroo]

I noted in your deleted post that you compared the fate of David Hicks to that of Australian POWs on the Burma railway and Changi saying his period of incarceration was much longer.I have met and talked to many ex POWs from Changi and the death railway.Their stories are much more horrific than that of David Hicks.

As have I ... close family members (grandfather).

Vomit stuff!!!!!!!!

 

[medhead]

Medhead Hicks was in Pakistan before 9/11.He describes firing at indian soldiers in Kashmir.
When he heard about 9/11 he went to Afghanistan.He had been to training camps there before 9/11 as well.
He was captured by the Northern alliance in December 2001 in Afghanistan.So what's your point?Nowhere have I said he fought against Australians.But those fighting the Northern Alliance were the Taliban.
The first soldiers of our SASR were deployed to Afghanistan in October 2001.So Hicks was associated with those fighting our soldiers even though he didn't.

The comment about Barlow and Chambers was in the context of the John Birmingham article in Fairfax-
Blunt Instrument: The racism of not caring
He sets up the strawman linking attitudes of Australians not supporting the Bali nine as racism.Barlow and Chambers as I said were white and only supported by 10% of Australians at the time of their execution.
He uses the same tactics as you.Take peoples criticism of David Hicks as proof that they support torture when that is definitely far from the truth.

I noted in your deleted post that you compared the fate of David Hicks to that of Australian POWs on the Burma railway and Changi saying his period of incarceration was much longer.I have met and talked to many ex POWs from Changi and the death railway.Their stories are much more horrific than that of David Hicks.

I suggest you read the thread. The claim was made that he fought Australian soldiers. Wrong!

Saying he got what he deserved supports torture. I sure as hell haven't based my comment on criticism of hicks. That is clearly based on people saying he got what he deserved. If you can't understand this simple distinction that is your problem.

Your personal little story about Japanese POWs sounds a hell of a lot like justification for hicks' treatment. Not to mention your earlier reliance on an admission obtain from torture as proof of guilt.

This Bali 9 Barlow and chambers rubbish might have context to some newspaper story but it remains irrelevant. It is a strawman for you to even bring it up as if it means anything wrt my point.

 

[medhead]

As have I ... close family members (grandfather).

Vomit stuff!!!!!!!!

Oh but torturing someone for 5.5 years is ok? Locking them in a small box is ok? I certainly never made any comment about the magnitude of what was done. It was pretty damn clear that I was saying neither is right. But just keep putting up your strawman.

 

[RooFlyer]

Personally I think that everyone including the media are avoiding the REAL big issues;

Did he get miles and SC on his trips to/from Gitmo?

Not everyone in the media are avoiding the big issues From Gerard Henderson's column in the Oz:

Shortly before the Sage of Hawthorn and the Sage of Avalon (or is it the Peninsula?) entered the twittersphere in defence of David Hicks, the man himself told a media conference on Sydney Harbour that he was in Afghanistan because he was “having a holiday”.
<snip>
And what did Mr Hicks do on his vacation in Afghanistan in 2001? Well, armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, he guarded a Taliban tank close to Kandahar Airport [How many al-Qa’ida-approved frequent flyer points do you think such activity would earn? – MWDEd].

 

[straitman]

I suggest you read the thread. The claim was made that he fought Australian soldiers. Wrong!

One line in one post only.

 

[amaroo]

Oh but torturing someone for 5.5 years is ok? Locking them in a small box is ok? I certainly never made any comment about the magnitude of what was done. It was pretty damn clear that I was saying neither is right. But just keep putting up your strawman.

Who would have thought that posting a cartoon would cause such a verbal assault filled with hatred and vomit .... oh, wait!

 

[JohnPhelan]

Your personal little story about Japanese POWs......

I do hope you're not suggesting that the horrors of the Burma railway are "someone's personal little story".

 

[RooFlyer]

'Torture' is a word that gets bandied about a lot these days.

Teenagers are 'tortured' by having to get up 'early' to attend school. Parents are 'tortured' by having to pay high child care fees. Non refugees are 'tortured' by being held in detention with 3 squares a day, medical attention etc. AFFers are 'tortured' by reading tosh written in support of an idiot who thought it was cool to go to Afghanistan in support of the Taliban.


This is not a new argument, but worth contemplating on by those who stand on their holier-than-thou high horse and beat their chests about non-negotiable 'torture'. If nothing else at all, maybe we can all agree on the horror that is ISIS. Say there were legitimate grounds for knowing in advance that there was going to be a large scale ISIS attack on a school somewhere in the country. (contemplate on a personal, not abstract situation). One of the perps is in custody; video posted, knives in house, personally written manifesto to be released to the media ... the whole bit. Need to get him to talk.

Just how far would you want the authorities to go to help prevent the attack in your kids school? [thinking music plays here]


My honest opinion - start normally but escalate as rapidly as possible to no holds barred - and I sleep very well at night, thank-you. But is there really anyone out there who would say "Oh, no, he must be treated fairly and innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Its worth sacrificing the kids in defence of our opposition to torture. Torture is so repugnant. What ISIS do is no different from what the Vikings did."

 

[juddles]

....I noted in your deleted post that you compared the fate of David Hicks to that of Australian POWs on the Burma railway .....

I did not get to read the post referred to. But it is incomprehensible to me that anyone with an ounce of education would dare to draw ANY comparison. That is truly appalling, and reveals an ignorance or maliciousness of gigantic proportions.

IMHO Hicks is a typical example of people with some mental issues who spend life looking for some sort of cause or environment where they can feel important. The particular ¨cause¨ is not important to them, despite whatever they say. People like him just want the opportunity to get photos holding big guns and doing outrageous deeds, the more ¨newsworthy¨ the better. I have no doubt whatsover that if Hicks had evaded capture, today he would be doing his best to reach ISIS and become involved in their atrocities. Not because he is inherently some super-ruthless jihadist, but rather because he is tipical of the mentally imbalanced losers that profesional terrorist organisations can easily recruit and get them to do anything they want, unthinking puppets.


And despite this all being a result of his mental deficiencies, his place is in a mental ward, not open society. Because he is dangerous. Through the magnitude of his sheer stupidity and gullibility.

 

[RooFlyer]

I did not get to read the post referred to. But it is incomprehensible to me that anyone with an ounce of education would dare to draw ANY comparison. That is truly appalling, and reveals an ignorance or maliciousness of gigantic proportions.

<snip>.

Its called 'moral equivalence' juddles. So as to stick it to politicians/governments they loath, people may compare something truly barbaric or horrifying, to something done by 'our side' . Its just cause and effect; tit for tat; our fault. It can be a manifestation of self loathing - where the person is so guilt ridden by what they see as 'crimes' of their own side that they begin to equate the truly horrific and barbaric to something done by another side - even though the other side may be trying to protect itself from the barbaric acts.

Anthony Lowestein is a classic local example.

 

[admin]

I have decided to close this thread for the time being. Things again are becoming a bit heated.


Thanks to all who participated in this thread and abided by our political thread guidelines. And a warning for those that didn't - next time you don't follow the guidelines in the spirit they are intended you will certainly receive disciplinary action, which could well result in a permanent ban on AFF. This is primarily a frequent flyer forum, and won't allow the harmony in our community be disrupted by a few who feel that they continually need to prove their point in a field which is totally unrelated to aviation.