International Calls for Lockdowns to be Relaxed

[MEL_Traveller]

Interesting that Tassie was the "brave" and "first" state to lockdown and yet has the biggest single outbreak... shows a real lack of intelligence on someone's part? Or does it show that once the virus is out, it is out? Or is Tassie trying to compete with WA at being the dumbest state in the country? Or is it irony?

And people who say "even if one life is saved then it is all worth it"...... are actually very dumb.

Speed limits dropped to 10kph - definitely a reduction in road deaths - anyone interested?

I feel really really sad for those at home, locked away, terrified, lapping up every bit of cough the govt tells you... use you brains. Understand that being alive at all is a risk - just walking leaving your house is a risk. If you are too scared - stay at home. And let the rest of us get on with our lives.

Humans have been living with the risk of death at the hands of nature since day zero.

Also notice the interactions on this forum have really dropped?? There are hardly any posts. I wonder if it is because everyone is busy at work (joke), or is it because the level of discourse has become so partisan that most people cannot be bothered to interact?

It seems like you are conflating two issues here - state border 'closures' and 'lockdowns'.

No one, any where, is advocating against lockdowns. Well, except for a few in the USA.

In the UK it seems people are asking why the government didn't go further.

It would be nice if we could have a system where those who wanted to stay at home could, and those that wanted to take the risk, to do so.

But the hospitals belong to all of us. We have finite medical resources, finite nurses and doctors. We don't want to end up like the USA, UK, Italy or Spain where medical staff are dying, and hospitals are overwhelmed. That costs me, staying at home, money.

Yes, life is a risk. But I can also try and insure against those risks. I can have an annual flu vaccine. I can't with Covid.

None of these debates about economics vs freedom vs covid are ever led by the elderly, the infirm, disabled. Only by the young.

 

[drron]

It seems like you are conflating two issues here - state border 'closures' and 'lockdowns'.

No one, any where, is advocating against lockdowns. Well, except for a few in the USA.

In the UK it seems people are asking why the government didn't go further.

It would be nice if we could have a system where those who wanted to stay at home could, and those that wanted to take the risk, to do so.

But the hospitals belong to all of us. We have finite medical resources, finite nurses and doctors. We don't want to end up like the USA, UK, Italy or Spain where medical staff are dying, and hospitals are overwhelmed. That costs me, staying at home, money.

Yes, life is a risk. But I can also try and insure against those risks. I can have an annual flu vaccine. I can't with Covid.

None of these debates about economics vs freedom vs covid are ever led by the elderly, the infirm, disabled. Only by the young.

Now I know many on here just take any opportunity to blame everything in the US on trump.
So is Angela Merkel responsible for this?

Or Trudeau for protests in vancouver?

Also protests in Russia,Brazil,Belgium,India,Lebanon,France and South Africa.
The longer lockdowns remain the more that will join the protests.it is human nature.

And just to get it straight I don't support protests but am mindful on the distress and problems that the lockdowns cause.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Now I know many on here just take any opportunity to blame everything in the US on trump.
So is Angela Merkel responsible for this?

Or Trudeau for protests in vancouver?

Also protests in Russia,Brazil,Belgium,India,Lebanon,France and South Africa.
The longer lockdowns remain the more that will join the protests.it is human nature.

And just to get it straight I don't support protests but am mindful on the distress and problems that the lockdowns cause.

The first youtube video comes with the caption:

It gives hope to see that people in Germany have had enough. They no longer accept this madness. All our freedoms have been taken away under the guise of this situation. One love for Germany​

​

It gives hope to whom? The elderly? Disabled? Infirm? Retirees? Those likely to be most affected?

The second video - 10 or 12 people max? And the comments are the telling bit - overwhelmingly critical of the notion.

 

[Hvr]

None of these debates about economics vs freedom vs covid are ever led by the elderly, the infirm, disabled. Only by the young.

I think you may have missed the demographic who is leading the call for lockdowns to be lifted in the US are the very rich. Trump is 73 and he has called for open insurrection against three states in lockdown lead by the opposition party.

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think you may have missed the demographic who is leading the call for lockdowns to be lifted in the US are the very rich. Trump is 73 and he has called for open insurrection against three states in lockdown lead by the opposition party.

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

The USA is a unique beast. And why I excluded them from my comments. The 'normal' rules don't seem to apply in the USA (look at gun control, refusal to even accept the notion of universal health care, etc).

 

[drron]

I think you may have missed the demographic who is leading the call for lockdowns to be lifted in the US are the very rich. Trump is 73 and he has called for open insurrection against three states in lockdown lead by the opposition party.

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

Sorry HVR but most of the videos of the US protests i have seen have all had many people shouting out that they want their jobs back including quite a few African Americans and Latinos.it is the poorer Americans that are hit hardest which is why the Mid West states are prominent in the protests.

Agreed I have seen a couple of ABC news reports on the protests showing typical white red necks with their big guns protesting though I have not really seen any rich folk.They are well protected.And if you research the handouts smaller businesses are getting in the President's bailout scheme you would realise why they are not protesting.You would have a good point protesting about that.

 

[RooFlyer]

I think you may have missed the demographic who is leading the call for lockdowns to be lifted in the US are the very rich. Trump is 73 and he has called for open insurrection against three states in lockdown lead by the opposition party.

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

You obviously aren't watching there ABC, which is delighting on showing the poor, 'rednecks' leading the protests and besieging the Governors' residences.

My God. To say business owners are 'quite happy to see their workers die' requires a very special view of the world. Very sad.

Those working class protesters wanting the lockdown lifted just want jobs, to feed their family. Do you honestly think that isn't the case? Not Just big business who are 'happy to see their workers die'. Really???

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Those working class protesters wanting the lockdown lifted just want jobs, to feed their family. Do you honestly think that isn't the case? Not Just big business who are 'happy to see their workers die'. Really???

I dunno. The USA is really complex. Many argue for their freedom above all else - like their freedom to carry guns, regardless of the statistics for mass killings. Many argue their freedom to the extent that any sort of subsidised health care is seen as an affront to liberty (I kid you not, a tv commentator was complaining that if Obamacare got off the ground 'sick people would be inundating hospitals'). Speed cameras are seen as an affront to personal freedom - you should be allowed to go whatever speed you think is safe, not have the government tell you what to do. In most states you have the right to shoot someone on your property, no questions. You don't even have to attempt to ask them to leave, or to leave your home if threatened, you can just shoot.

It's pretty scary in the USA.

So in one sense, the call for the end of the lockdown is not only about wanting jobs back, it's about having their liberty taken away. And they like their liberty, almost it seems at any cost.

 

[RooFlyer]

I dunno. The USA is really complex. Many argue for their freedom above all else - like their freedom to carry guns, regardless of the statistics for mass killings. Many argue their freedom to the extent that any sort of subsidised health care is seen as an affront to liberty (I kid you not, a tv commentator was complaining that if Obamacare got off the ground 'sick people would be inundating hospitals'). Speed cameras are seen as an affront to personal freedom - you should be allowed to go whatever speed you think is safe, not have the government tell you what to do. In most states you have the right to shoot someone on your property, no questions. You don't even have to attempt to ask them to leave, or to leave your home if threatened, you can just shoot.

It's pretty scary in the USA.

So in one sense, the call for the end of the lockdown is not only about wanting jobs back, it's about having their liberty taken away. And they like their liberty, almost it seems at any cost.

Although I think ascribing those sorts of things to 'the USA' (in general) is a bit of hyperbole, I get what you are saying. I'm sure you've been in the USA many times, or maybe lived there for a while like me (in Nevada) and I honestly hardly ever came across anyone with those attitudes. Everyone I know who has spent any time there has come back and said to the effect "they are so different to what we see on television".

My post wasn't so much about the USA, as the seemingly serious post that included "The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die." That type of 'world view' I think is just as sad as the USA attitudes you mentioned.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Although I think ascribing those sorts of things to 'the USA' (in general) is a bit of hyperbole, I get what you are saying. I'm sure you've been in the USA many times, or maybe lived there for a while like me (in Nevada) and I honestly hardly ever came across anyone with those attitudes. Everyone I know who has spent any time there has come back and said to the effect "they are so different to what we see on television".

My post wasn't so much about the USA, as the seemingly serious post that included "The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die." That type of 'world view' I think is just as sad as the USA attitudes you mentioned.

re bold text... you'd think right! But they voted in Trump, and he's hugely popular representing minimal government and freedom of choice. whether working class or industrialist. My best friend is American, I thought they were fairly centre or centre-left. Wasn't until I'd known them for 20 years that the issue of road deaths came up. They live in a southern state, same population as Victoria but have 879 road deaths a year. When I mentioned booze buses, drug testing and speed cameras... well... 'the constitution!!!!'. You can't possibly have any of those things, regardless of the lives saved... because they are outside of any reasonable law making or police power. It's a bubbling mindset, whether one issue or another, it comes out eventually. So would business owners and even the workers be prepared to die... actually I believe many would... if the alternative meant having to stay inside because 'the government told them'

 

[p--and--t]

re bold text... you'd think right! But they voted in Trump, and he's hugely popular representing minimal government and freedom of choice. whether working class or industrialist. My best friend is American, I thought they were fairly centre or centre-left. Wasn't until I'd known them for 20 years that the issue of road deaths came up. They live in a southern state, same population as Victoria but have 879 road deaths a year. When I mentioned booze buses, drug testing and speed cameras... well... 'the constitution!!!!'. You can't possibly have any of those things, regardless of the lives saved... because they are outside of any reasonable law making or police power. It's a bubbling mindset, whether one issue or another, it comes out eventually. So would business owners and even the workers be prepared to die... actually I believe many would... if the alternative meant having to stay inside because 'the government told them'

Several years ago I rented a car to drive from Boston to Vermont and was driving along the highway at 10mph over speed limit (not kph) and people were flashing past at way faster speed than me and others tailgating me and honking their horns like crazy. Never saw a police car in 4 days of driving. Didn't see any cameras or warning signs. Very mind opening.

 

[Hvr]

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

The USA is a unique beast. And why I excluded them from my comments. The 'normal' rules don't seem to apply in the USA (look at gun control, refusal to even accept the notion of universal health care, etc).

Some stories from the USA where employers aren't worried about their employees:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/25/warehouse-workers-are-essential-its-time-we-treated-them-that-way/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/04/24/smithfield-foods-lawsuit-coronavirus/

The WaPo is a media outlet that always supports the Republican party and recently made a huge issue about how they would not support the re-election of Trump, the first time they ever haven't supported the election of a Republican president.

How the coronavirus recession puts service workers at risk

Service workers are some of the most at risk of both the coronavirus and financial woes.

theconversation.com

Almost 80%

of all U.S. private sector employment is in the service sector, totaling some 129 million jobs. The coronavirus pandemic poses a unique threat, both of eliminating jobs and putting workers at risk of infection.

Can your boss make you come to work during coronavirus outbreak?

As the coronavirus ramps up, workers might be wondering what rights they have if -- or when -- their higher-ups request that they return to the office.

www.usatoday.com

...one of the most pressing questions is: Can your boss actually force you to work during a pandemic?
Experts say the answer is no, but the laws aren't so clear-cut.

The Problem With Telling Sick Workers to Stay Home

Even with the coronavirus spreading, lax labor laws and little sick leave mean that many people can’t afford to skip work.

www.theatlantic.com

Even if a person in one of these jobs is severely ill—coughing, sneezing, blowing her nose, and propelling droplets of virus-containing bodily fluids into the air and onto the surfaces around her—asking for time off means missing an hourly wage that might be necessary to pay rent or buy groceries. And even asking can be a risk in jobs with few labor protections, because in many states, there’s nothing to stop a company from firing you for being too much trouble.

 

[Pushka]

Good grief. Don't tar all employers with the same brush. We aren't all criminals. amended.

 

[Hvr]

Good grief. Don't tar all employers with the same brush. We aren't all criminals. Generalisations like this are contemptible.

I was specifically referring to US employers engaging in egregious behaviour toward their employees. All of the citations are from US media and refer to US based work locations.

 

[Pushka]

I was specifically referring to US employers engaging in egregious behaviour toward their employees. All of the citations are from US media and refer to US based work locations.

Fair 'enuf. Thanks. But I'd dare say the same thoughts apply there too but no one ever gets to hear about the good guys.

 

[burmans]

I think you may have missed the demographic who is leading the call for lockdowns to be lifted in the US are the very rich. Trump is 73 and he has called for open insurrection against three states in lockdown lead by the opposition party.

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

Trump hotels must be losing lots of money in the current environment,

 

[p--and--t]

Sorry HVR but most of the videos of the US protests i have seen have all had many people shouting out that they want their jobs back including quite a few African Americans and Latinos.it is the poorer Americans that are hit hardest which is why the Mid West states are prominent in the protests.

Agreed I have seen a couple of ABC news reports on the protests showing typical white red necks with their big guns protesting though I have not really seen any rich folk.They are well protected.And if you research the handouts smaller businesses are getting in the President's bailout scheme you would realise why they are not protesting.You would have a good point protesting about that.

ABC had a couple of talking heads who said they had good evidence many of the protest events were organised and funded by big business. Who knows if it is true; but it seems even most long term politicians in the US are only there because they look after big business interests, including the current president.

 

[Pushka]

I think you may have missed the demographic who is leading the call for lockdowns to be lifted in the US are the very rich. Trump is 73 and he has called for open insurrection against three states in lockdown lead by the opposition party.

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

A demographic does not represent the majority. My viewing of who is protesting is very different to your view. Gotta stop picking the cherries.

 

[NoName]

The WaPo is a media outlet that always supports the Republican party and recently made a huge issue about how they would not support the re-election of Trump, the first time they ever haven't supported the election of a Republican president.

Not sure that is correct about the Washington Post supporting the Republican Party. Did you mean a different Washington media outlet?

Washington Post - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording

mediabiasfactcheck.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/patrick-pexton-the-posts-endorsements-historically-tend-democratic/2012/11/02/6890a49a-250a-11e2-ba29-238a6ac36a08_story.html

 

[Deleted member]

I think you may have missed the demographic who is leading the call for lockdowns to be lifted in the US are the very rich. Trump is 73 and he has called for open insurrection against three states in lockdown lead by the opposition party.

The main group of people who want the lockdowns lifted are very rich business owners who are quite happy to have their workers die.

I must have missed that press release. Who said they are happy for workers to die?