Is Cash now a better bet than FF Points?

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Buck

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Alas ... years of brand loyalty and tireless points accumulation didn't add up to a hill of beans.

Recently returned from family trip to Singapore. Work commitments meant that our travel dates were pretty much fixed, which does not help when you try to use FF points.

Disappointed to learn that there was not one FF seats to get there, and indeed not one FF seats coming home. Sure it was peak travel season, and we only committed to book 4 months out - and yes I could have used the points + pay option (which is very poor value in point redemption). So in the end I just paid cash -- and even booked one of the legs with a different carrier as it was cheaper.

Went over on Singapore Airlines - even signed up to their Krisfkyer program and back on our friend QANTAS with my million or so FF points tucked away untouched.

Got me to thinking ... is it all worth it??

Sure, if you are a retiree -- or live a life that allows you to be flexible in your travel then maybe FF programs are great. But if you have a familiy and are restricted in your travelling options, then maybe there are other ways?

I've done some maths this morning and this is what I found ...

As a Comm Bank customer on Diamond -- with Optus + Woolworths all feeding QANTAS FF, points accumulation is not too bad. Just that I can't seem to use the points when I really need to.

I toyed around with swapping my Credit Card back to True awards ... you get a 25% uptick in Mastercard points, but on assessment their awards are more expensive. Besides, we've trained ourselves to be masters of the Amex transaction.

As a simple example - a $500 retail voucher on True Awards requires 87,000 points (Coles) whilst in the QANTAS store a $500 Woolies voucher costs only 67,500. Thats makes True Awards 28% more expensive. Yes you do earn an extra .25 of a point on Mastercard transaction - but you don't need to be a maths wizz to know that that is a poor deal.

The thing that peaked my interest in True Awards was the Flight Centre option -- the promise of any flight on any carrier at any time (with their guarantee to match any price). What could be better!? Considering my recent Singapore troubles, this was an attractive proposition.

True Awards offers a $1000 voucher for $184,000 points. My flights to Singapore & return cost me close to $6000 (for family of 4) so that would have equated to a need for 1,104,000 True Award points.

By comparison if you could have jagged the QANTAS FF seats - it would have only cost 240,000 points for 4 people return. But the point being you have to be able to jag these seats! The points are irrelevant, indeed worthless, if you cant use them.

But then ... is there another option? The Woolies deal with QANTAS is interesting. I can claim a $500 woolies card for 67,500 points. But Wollies does not sell travel or airplane tickets. But they do sell Pre-Paid mastercards. Why couldn't I buy pre-paid master cards with woolies vouchers?

I spent the morning looking online and I cant see anything in the product disclosure statements that would prohibit this from happeneing. I expect Woolies would treat their gift cards like cash - which they should.

The maths then gets heaps better. $6000 worth of Pre-paid mastercards from Woolies from the Qantas store would cost only 810,000 points. Thats a massive 36% points saving when compared to True Awards. I could then use the mastercards to buy whatever travel I wanted on whatever aiirline. You do have to pay $2 per card and each card can only hold $1000 -- but to unlock the value a small price to pay.

Still 810,000 points is three times more expensive than the standard FF seats. For the record $6000 in QANTAS Holidays vouchers also totals 810,000 points through the QANTAS Store.

Anyway, my QANTAS FF points seem safe for another year. Hopefully they will be there for my retirement when I can fit my travel into their schedule, and not expect that they fit their loyalty program into mine .... Or, I'll use my points for upgrades and just resign myself to the fact that I'll always have to pay cash for travel until we don't have to be locked in to school holiday travel.
 
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I've never been able to find the value in cashing in points for money. I almost gasped out loud at the prospect of spending nearly a million points for $6K.

You say that ASA's are poor value, and indeed they can be, as can classic awards at different times. What sort of dollar/points values were you seeing for the family trip to SIN? I'd have thought that a bit of cash and a million points would nearly get you and the family all J class returns (the real value in FF points in my exp = J class fares).
 
I've never been able to find the value in cashing in points for money. I almost gasped out loud at the prospect of spending nearly a million points for $6K.

You say that ASA's are poor value, and indeed they can be, as can classic awards at different times. What sort of dollar/points values were you seeing for the family trip to SIN? I'd have thought that a bit of cash and a million points would nearly get you and the family all J class returns (the real value in FF points in my exp = J class fares).

Points plus pay which is referenced is not an ASA as such, but the two often get confused.
 
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There is worth in the programs but only if you know how to use it properly.

Some people will use a rewards program in different ways. Some may think that others use a rewards program unwisely, but for the other, that's good enough for them. You can't say that they are idiots - they simply are happier finding rewards in that way.

If someone wants to spend their QFF points on a new lamp or laptop, fine. We mostly think that's crazy talk, but if someone is happy that way, fine.


In saying that, for you it seems you are with us that the best way (we find) to use points is on award tickets, and usually premium ones (i.e. Business or First Class).

If you are a Qantas Platinum Frequent Flyer, it is much easier to try and find award seats that you can get a hold of (at worst, you could request them and more likely than not be successful). Notwithstanding this, there are occasionally Any Seat Awards which are priced at Classic Award levels, but they are rare, especially in premium classes on popular routes (and at popular times). You need to hit hard and fast, well in advance. It is not unusual for there to be no Classic-priced Any Seat Awards, and yet still be Classic Awards available for that same flight.

Classic Awards are usually a better bet (for availability) if you have a larger group; of course for these you will earn no points or status credits.

In general, to find the awards you want you do need to search as far in advance as you can, and be mindful of the busy times. Having QFF status does help as well. If you look far enough ahead, you may still need to be flexible, but your window of flexibility may at least be constrained to days, not weeks or months.

Also, trying to find premium class seats for more than 2 people will always be difficult under most circumstances.


In the end, reward programs are only worth to the people who will take advantage of it in the ways that they are content.
 
Be prepared to split your group up over a 24 hour period and your chances of getting the redemption seat really improves.
Book one ways as soon as they release as cancellation fees are not high.
Trying to use points on long haul a few weeks or days ahead can work for one seat due to cancellations.
i always check Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane for Los Angeles as Mrscove still thinks of Qantas first.
 
The maths then gets heaps better. $6000 worth of Pre-paid mastercards from Woolies from the Qantas store would cost only 810,000 points. Thats a massive 36% points saving when compared to True Awards. I could then use the mastercards to buy whatever travel I wanted on whatever aiirline. You do have to pay $2 per card and each card can only hold $1000 -- but to unlock the value a small price to pay.
Sounds like you will find a way to spend those points this year. Keep working yor figures and ideas and of source, keep working through this forum.

For the Mastercard idea, be aware that the merchant's conditions generally prohibit spreading a transaction across multiple cards. Not a insurmountable problem though.
 
I have the feeling the OP has not looked at ASAs, for instance in July School holidays from Sydney there is plenty of availability for 2A and 2C using ASAs:

July.jpg

Now this can be reduced to the classic level for $348 per traveller, making the total cost 240000 points + $1394, of course there would be 36000 points earned if everyone is NB, making the net cost closer to 200000 points.
 
Recently returned from family trip to Singapore. Work commitments meant that our travel dates were pretty much fixed, which does not help when you try to use FF points.

Disappointed to learn that there was not one FF seats to get there, and indeed not one FF seats coming home. Sure it was peak travel season, and we only committed to book 4 months out - and yes I could have used the points + pay option (which is very poor value in point redemption). So in the end I just paid cash -- and even booked one of the legs with a different carrier as it was cheaper.

It definitely does not help if your travel dates / patterns cannot be flexible and definitely decreases your chances of scoring those award seats. I know it is a PITA that you can't get seats even though you have a tonne of points but I guess that's just how the program is - it's unfortunately not suitable for every member out there. It works for some (such as myself as I'm generally quite flexible) and sometimes it doesn't to others.
 
Sure, if you are a retiree -- or live a life that allows you to be flexible in your travel then maybe FF programs are great. But if you have a familiy and are restricted in your travelling options, then maybe there are other ways?

Interesting find re the conversion of points to cash via Woolies vouchers and Pre-paid Mastercards - but as others have mentioned classic award redemptions still offer one of the best value-for-points ratios if you can get them.

My family fits what I believe are the two best groups in terms of getting value for points redemptions. My in-laws have massive QFF point balances accumulated from years of running their own business, and as retirees are able to modify their flight plans to suit award availability. They don't care about FF status tiers as they just redeem for First travel and get the benefits of travel class rather than FF status. As they're happy to book a year in advance and don't really mind which flight or routing they take they've always been able to redeem their points for suitable flights.

On the other hand, my wife and I are both WP members, so redeeming our points (again on classic award flights) is as easy as calling the service centre and requesting they open seats. Again we've always been lucky to have suitable flights opened - our most recent attempt last year had QF open 2 F award seats SYD-LAX-SYD at about 2 weeks notice.

If you can't stand taking flights that don't earn Status Credits (I admit I am always disappointed to see the zeros in the earn columns next to classic award flights) then it is harder to see value in the redemption of FF points, otherwise I still see great value in using FF points to redeem classic award flights.
 
I convert CC points a couple of ways, if I'm going to fly Virgin, I just convert the points to real $ so I can purchase a $ fare. Remembering the Virgin reward seats dont give you any SCs etc. Where as Qantas do.
 
My wife and I use points for international upgrades as a rule. Never for domestic flights. Occasionally for international flights.
 
The OP is of course referring to Qantas FF points rather than FF points in general. Doesn't help him of course but I got trips to Singapore on Singapore Air last year for our family of 4 (with 1/2 points voucher from Westpac) over September School holidays and the first weekend was the Singapore GP.

Perhaps why I prefer Singapore on Qantas these days though I did also get a flight for us all to Queenstown on Qantas this year at Easter 6 months out (had to fly via Melbourne there and Auckland back but nevertheless there was an option to redeem). If I'd known about ASA's at the time probably would have looked at that as an option!
 
Hi, it is horses for courses. Just a couple of other points - Cashing in gives you flexibility. I've seen many people book a flight but not a well timed flight meaning extra travel and hotel costs. Add those costs in then cash often looks a better option. If you check out the Thread started by me CGES (title below) you'll find a simple calculator[h=3]Cash or Fly with Your Frequent Flyer Points - Includes a calculator[/h]
 
It pretty much comes down to if you are trying to redeem against BFOD economy tickets or something else.

Try this; which is a legitimate fare, available every day of the week:

PER-MEL-PER, 13,800 VFF + $388, DJ Business Class.

Normal Ticket price = $2,600 (ish)

So, 2600 - 388 = 2212 / 13,800 = 16c / point
 
It definitely does not help if your travel dates / patterns cannot be flexible and definitely decreases your chances of scoring those award seats. I know it is a PITA that you can't get seats even though you have a tonne of points but I guess that's just how the program is - it's unfortunately not suitable for every member out there. It works for some (such as myself as I'm generally quite flexible) and sometimes it doesn't to others.

Mrs Paddy is a schoolteacher so our travel always occurs at 'peak times'

Despite this inflexibility we've been able to organise:

2 x QF JASA's SYD-MEL-LAX Dec 12 (Mrs Paddy likes the A380 and QF11 wasn't available)
2 x AA First Class LAX-MCO Dec 14
2 x AA First Class MCO-JFK Dec 22
2 x AA Bus Class JFK-LAX Jan 7
3 x QF JASA's LAX-SYD QF108 not QF12 :( Jan 7

I put Expert Flyer to good use, watched QF and AA websites like a hawk, and sweated bullets but I feel you can get awards for multiple travellers on fixed dates in holiday periods. :p

Spent hours and hours learning from some pretty smart folks on AFF how to accumulate and then spend points... literally life changing over the past 3 years.

Next stop: Europe in mid 2013 using AA Awards :mrgreen:
 
Now that's a deal! A lot more bang for your dollar than a gift card and available every day, even better. Cheers
 
Mrs Paddy is a schoolteacher so our travel always occurs at 'peak times'
Great find! My wife is also a school teacher and we have got a JASA to HKG returning with a JASA (with complimentary upgrade to F) from SIN in the September / October school holidays.

The awards are out there, it is just a matter of how much effort you are willing to go to in order to find them.
 
Hi,

I think that cashing out for QANTAS holidays can be the best option when the fare is low due mainly due to the BS fuel surcharge cost that is now included in taxes on classic award and that sometimes Any Seat Awards offer better value. For example if you are travelling June 13th 2013 and June 27th 2013 SYD->LAX return.

Lowest cash price->1501
Classic award->96000 points + 841 in taxes
Any Seat Award-> 96000 points + 677.76 or 165384 points

It costs 13500 points to get a voucher for $100 so cost of the flight in vouchers for points is 202500. In this case the Any Seat Award is the best value. However I saw the same fares on sale before for 1200 with ASAs being unavailable. In this case the cost for vouchers is 162000 points plus I think you get a few more rights and some FF points for the cash booking fees. Main point is that it's worth looking at the other two options as in some cases Classic Awards are not the best value.

Paul
 
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