Is Elizabeth line a "tube" line?

[Forg]

One person seems to be talking about a technical designation/membership, another about a colloquial reference ... "it's red!" ==> "no it's orange!" ==> "no it's red!" ... well sorry but you're both right, 'cos ones an apple & one's an orange.

Post automatically merged: May 12, 2023

Dammit now I'm wrong the apple was a Granny Smith!!

 

[NoName]

AFF debating the big issues.

 

[BAM1748]

Wow, I thought railfans were pedantic.

 

[ausfox]

Hey guys, save the data because who gives a ? 1800whocares

 

[BAM1748]

Hey guys, save the data because who gives a ? 1800whocares

It’s important to the rivet counters.

 

[moa999]

Having watched many of Geoff Marshalls videos on the line, the correct name is Purple Train.

It's not a tube.. it's not the overground or the DLR, it's a new mode.. probably closest to Paris RER A.

Oh. And Sydney Buses are now all privately operated (the last STA bus contracts expired in early 2022 and it was disbanded), and as are Sydney Ferries, Light Rail and Metro.. in all cases the Govt primarily owns the infrastructure, collects and controls fares and sets the timetable.

 

[RooFlyer]

I was in it yesterday. It’s part of the tube network. It’s on the tube map AND it’s fully interchangeable with the other tube lines, AND the fare structure is the same as the rest AND the announcements are the same AND locals call it the tube, they regard it as the tube AND, importantly, in central London it runs through a tunnel, hence the nickname tube. Note the ANDs there.
Think of the definition of a duck. If it looks, works, costs, operates, is named and even smells like the (traditional) tube, it is.

Might an analogy be the Sydney motorway network. There is a series of highways named M1 M2, M3 etc. Some are government owned and free some are privately owned and toll roads. They are fully interchangeable with each other. They all have the same car and truck capacity as each other, the lines are all marked the same and they appear on various maps illustrated the same.

Are the privately owned M roads not part of the “Sydney highway/freeway network” because of their ownership structure?

 

[justinbrett]

I was in it yesterday. It’s part of the tube network. It’s on the tube map AND it’s fully interchangeable with the other tube lines, AND the fare structure is the same as the rest AND the announcements are the same AND locals call it the tube, they regard it as the tube AND, importantly, in central London it runs through a tunnel, hence the nickname tube. Note the ANDs there.
Think of the definition of a duck. If it looks, works, costs, operates, is named and even smells like the (traditional) tube, it is.

Might an analogy be the Sydney motorway network. There is a series of highways named M1 M2, M3 etc. Some are government owned and free some are privately owned and toll roads. They are fully interchangeable with each other. They all have the same car and truck capacity as each other, the lines are all marked the same and they appear on various maps illustrated the same.

Are the privately owned M roads not part of the “Sydney highway/freeway network” because of their ownership structure?

The better analogy is the Sydney Metro vs underground Sydney trains (Eg Bondi Junction line). For the moment they are considered different modes, Metro using light blue logos and trains using orange. On the network map Metro has double lines and trains have solid lines.

The DLR fits all of your ”ANDs” apart from the tube bit (but not all tubes are underground)

I don’t think your motorway analogy is apt as it is completely different hardware, there are extra rails to power the real tubes, and the elizabeth line has overhead wires just like the overground. Otherwise we might as well call light rail trains too.

Anyway I said this debate is trivial in my first post, and I only brought it up in the context of workers strikes, in that it would not be linked to tube drivers because it’s not run as a tube line (and as we pointed out earlier, TfL doesn’t class it as a tube line, that’s why the roundel is purple not red)

Having watched many of Geoff Marshalls videos on the line, the correct name is Purple Train.

It's not a tube.. it's not the overground or the DLR, it's a new mode.. probably closest to Paris RER A.

Oh. And Sydney Buses are now all privately operated (the last STA bus contracts expired in early 2022 and it was disbanded), and as are Sydney Ferries, Light Rail and Metro.. in all cases the Govt primarily owns the infrastructure, collects and controls fares and sets the timetable.

Yep, have watched many of his videos, which is mostly what has informed my position on this.

 

[justinbrett]

Actually should have just posted this to begin with. There’s no greater public transport nerd alive today than Geoff Marshall. If he says it isn’t, it isn’t.

 

[RooFlyer]

Actually should have just posted this to begin with. There’s no greater public transport nerd alive today than Geoff Marshall. If he says it isn’t, it isn’t.

Never heard of him, sorry.

When I jumped on the EL, I jumped on the tube.

If it’s a duck for all intents, uses and purposes , it’s a duck - no need to infinitesimally split hairs.

 

[justinbrett]

Never heard of him, sorry.

When I jumped on the EL, I jumped on the tube.

If it’s a duck for all intents, uses and purposes , it’s a duck - no need to infinitesimally split hairs.

It's not a duck when the ducks go on strike but EL still runs

 

[Melburnian1]

Exactly.

Elizabeth line is traditional rail, it's powered by overhead wires.

The tube is powered by rail underneath.

This is the difference between traditional rail and tube/underground/subway/metro trains.

You can't run tube trains on the Elizabeth line rail, and vice versa.

It's a different mode of transport.

What you may not understand is that the UK has the largest third rail network in the world, using 750 volts dc.

 

[TheRealTMA]

What you may not understand is that the UK has the largest third rail network in the world, using 750 volts dc.

You mean largest third “world” rail network.

 

[TheRealTMA]

It's not a duck when the ducks go on strike but EL still runs

Isn’t that because it’s automatic?

 

[justinbrett]

Isn’t that because it’s automatic?

Not yet. It is built to be though.

What you may not understand is that the UK has the largest third rail network in the world, using 750 volts dc.

I do.

 

[Quickstatus]

One person seems to be talking about a technical designation/membership, another about a colloquial reference .

Correct.
"Tube" is what travellers colloquially call part of the rail network that run in a "tube" or tunnel under the ground.

Isn’t that because it’s automatic?

The picture explains the degree of automation:



I think the strike affecting HExpress was called off because it was running. However the next train was 1 hr after after I was available to catch it. I got the ELine instead

 

[VPS]

Another opinion (I don't believe it is a tube line)

 

[justinbrett]

Another opinion (I don't believe it is a tube line)
View attachment 328596

How do the Germans feel if I refer to the S-Bahn as the U-Bahn?

(And don't give me that overground / underground cough, I've been on underground S-Bahns and overground U-Bahns...)

 

[Mr H]

The Tube was a colloquial name for the London Underground network, most of which actually ran overground. London Underground was subsumed into Transport for London (TfL) in around 2000, which integrated London Transport (buses), London Underground, Docklands Light Railway, taxis, river services and various other niche services. TfL also runs some Overground services and has joint ownership of the Elizabeth Line.

Debating what is Tube and what is not is just a semantic argument. Services have transferred into and out of London Underground throughout its history (e.g. the northern end of the Bakerloo line transferred to British Rail; the Drain transferred from British Rail to London Underground; and the East London line transferred into London Underground and back out to the Overground.

Elizabeth Line has been packaged to look like a Tube line so I imagine many people in London will call it the Tube. People in Reading who have never had London Underground services, may well be less likely to see it as the Tube.

 

[SYD]

Elizabeth Line has been packaged to look like a Tube line so I imagine many people in London will call it the Tube. People in Reading who have never had London Underground services, may well be less likely to see it as the Tube.

Actually, there are some distinct differences in the packaging I noticed using the EL a few weeks ago. Some stations have seperate barriers (one set for Underground lines and another set for EL - even though in some cases they’re right next to each other). Which is more like switching to between Underground and overground services. But EL uses Underground fares within the Zones.

The new western entrance to Tottenham Court Road station just has the purple EL signage above it, whereas the refurbed eastern entrance has the traditional Underground signage.

Unfortunately, I didn’t catch the EL to/from LHR (it wasn’t convenient for where I was staying but there is an £7+ airport surcharge that the Piccadilly line doesn’t have.

Either way, it’s an excellent addition to the network.