Is it Time to transfer/withdraw points from Velocity?

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Bibendum

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Hi All,

I need some advice from the brains trust on this forum.

I, like many on here, have hundreds of thousands of points sitting with velocity. With the current COVID-19 situation and virgins financial position I’m concerned that if the airline was declare bankruptcy points may disappear..

What’s the likelihood of this happening and should I withdraw my points by purchasing gift cards to get some cash value at what I have..?

am I making a mountain out of a mole hill.. or is there a real threat to my velocity points been wiped out..?
 
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And I really hope the Sydney Swans win the 2020 Grand Final. :cool:

But like the Virgin to SQ points transfer that opportunity also died 6 months back.

BAIN will be finished here in the next 6 months and lose a small fortune in the process. Get those gift cards NOW I suggest, or buy a new toaster etc.

Velocity will cease to be a cash cow *SUPER* fast of course, which BAIN fail to realise, as the only reasons folks bother to actively acquire points via Velocity cards, ebay spends, partner offers, FlyBuys etc, (all of which earns Velocity their money) is to ASPIRE for a lay flat biz flight award sear to Perth, Hong Kong, Fiji, LA, Japan or NZ etc, and none of that is ever going to occur going forward, and the public are smart enough to work that out VERY fast.

Like many other older heads, who lived through the Ansett collapse and lost the lot, I moved my million + Velocity points to SQ 6 months back, and urged others here to consider doing the same. THEY still have long haul lie-flat seat planes flying to burn points on - that much is already evident.
Is the flaw keeping the SQ points alive?
 
BAIN will be finished here in the next 6 months and lose a small fortune in the process. Get those gift cards NOW I suggest, or buy a new toaster
Yep, gotta agree with you 200% on that.
If following last week's events you can't now see the message "use them or lose them" being broadcast billboard size up in flashing neon lights, then I'm afraid you really do deserve to lose all your points.
I didn't even suffer through the pain of the Ansett debacle as I never flew with them and never had any points to lose, but even so I've burnt through all my 230,000 Velocity points this weekend in the store just getting whatever I can that will be useful before Bain make them worthless.
Got an iPad, new cordless house phones, noise cancelling headphones and a few other bits and bobs that will at least be useful. I know the redemption rate value/point is absolutely horrendous, but whatever it is is a helluva lot better than $0.00/pt, which it could very well become next week after Jayne gets in. Rarely have I seen such an obvious message of what's to come and how to act before you're left holding nothing. I didn't act quickly enough and join the run on the velocity store when the airline first went into administration and that was arguably a mistake. I'm not missing this second chance now. I doubt there'll be a third. When the CEO gets turfed, there's very little chance of coming back from there.

I'm in the same boat as many in having friends who work for Virgin, access to staff travel, been supporting/favouring credit cards aligned to Velocity etc. but I'm afraid I've had to call it as done following last week. Parked the Velocity credit cards, used all the points, if the free lounge passes were worth anything I'd be giving them away. Virgin is done, they just don't know it yet. The bones of what remains of the airline is ultimately going to be rolled into and absorbed by Jetstar for $1 after Bain have picked the carcass apart and sold off whatever goodwill and marketable value they can get from Velocity and the physical assets that are worth anything. Of course there's only one buyer for those assets, who won't touch any of them knowing full well they are the only buyer and the longer they hold out, the cheaper they become until they're worth nothing.
 
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SQ points do expire so you have to be super vigilant about them.

For the information of other members, these are the steps I have taken.

Moved my Westpac Velocity card point earn to Altitude rewards - which can then be transfered to SQ.

Any points I acquire on the ANZ Black can be directed to SQ as you manage the points transfer manually online

Changed my Velocity Platinum Amex card to Amex Platinum Edge card - this was done with oneline chat and only took a few minutes. There are a few cards that will allow you to credit to SQ - you just need to choose the one.

Flybuys we will have to stick with, I don't want to credit points on QF - pesonal choice, but with the bulk of our points earn going elsewhere I suddenly feel happier. I would be joyous if I could transfer the 300K points to SQ but we will see what time brings
 
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SQ points do expire so you have to be super vigilant about them.
As do Velocity points now. Yet another of the new "improvements" foisted upon members without consultation. The only reason I was favouring Velocity points over QFF was for the convenience factor that they never expired. Then I started getting e-mails that unless I did something I was going to lose 130,000 points in 4 weeks. That change put them no better than QFF points, so really, that was the end for me. Velocity Amex is completely redundent now. Not even worth being in the wallet anymore. I'm glad I only had ~230,000 points to get rid of. I'd hate to be under the pressure of finding a way to make use of > 500K pts on stupid tat from the 'store' in light of no visible prospect for international flights again.
 
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And I really hope the Sydney Swans win the 2020 Grand Final. :cool:

But like the Virgin to SQ points transfer that opportunity also died 6 months back.

BAIN will be finished here in the next 6 months and lose a small fortune in the process. Get those gift cards NOW I suggest, or buy a new toaster etc.

Velocity will cease to be a cash cow *SUPER* fast of course, which BAIN fail to realise, as the only reasons folks bother to actively acquire points via Velocity cards, ebay spends, partner offers, FlyBuys etc, (all of which earns Velocity their money) is to ASPIRE for a lay flat biz flight award sear to Perth, Hong Kong, Fiji, LA, Japan or NZ etc, and none of that is ever going to occur going forward, and the public are smart enough to work that out VERY fast.

Like many other older heads, who lived through the Ansett collapse and lost the lot, I moved my million + Velocity points to SQ 6 months back, and urged others here to consider doing the same. THEY still have long haul lie-flat seat planes flying to burn points on - that much is already evident.
I'm not so sure the 'sky is falling' quite the way you believe - the actual relative financial position of VA vs Q is heavily in VA's favour. Q's legacy costs (eg: over 2 million sqm of leased property globally, approx 90% on airport) are a festering sore. Q has already begun trying to sub-let 40% of their HQ long term lease for 47,000 sqm without success vs VA who have seen its leases wiped & reset for a fraction of the space & cost. Just one example of a financial advantage held by VA.

Q's fleet is significantly older (& has more expensive maintenance due to the high Airbus proportion) than VA Mk II's fleet. Something that the ratings agencies have previously identified as an issue with Q due to the massive capex requirement that Q is facing. Q's fleet age (National Jet, Qantas Link, JQ & Q) is just over 14 years (after the retirement of the B747-400s), the grounded A380s are relatively young in comparison at just 11.2yrs.

VA Mk II's fleet is under 9 yrs old - a major cost advantage both operationally & maintenance-wise. The lower-level maintenance/check requirements (if & when more flying is required) have a two-fold benefit. Firstly the cost of the maintenance performed is lower and secondly the time out of service is shorter. Then factor in the increased risk of going out of service due to parts failing - all this adds up to several % higher operating margins & less customer inconvenience.

I am more worried about losing my QFF points value than VFF points - at least VFF points were cash backed.

Bain now has the lowest cost per rpk & one of the simplest fleets in the world that operates within or to Australia, unlike Q which has around 50% of its fleet grounded & much more so by value due to the higher cost international fleet. If Q had not done the rushed 26 June Institutional equity raising then as of 30 June 2020 Q would have had a negative NTA of > $1 billion. After raising that $1.34bn (after costs) Q's NTA was under $300m or 5 cents per share - and that is after pocketing $515m from the Federal Govt through to June 30 including $267m from JobKeeper. Q also took $10m from the NZ & Singaporean Govts. Shame our Fed Govt does not show the same support to the foreign carriers currently our 'new-Australian' flag carriers!

Before looking at any of the many cash drains (which Q has not spoken about since April btw) Q had over $5bn of revenue received in advance but cash & securities etc of $3.5bn. In March/April AJ talked frequently about VA not surviving (a bit like you above) & how Q was aiming to reduce its operating cash burn to around $40m/week by late June. Interestingly enough - since then there has been no announcement, not even in the results release nor Annual Report, about what Q's weekly cash burn is.

The $500m retail equity offer failed, initially in July, raising $77m despite being extended. Then Q issued $500m worth of 10 Year unsecured bonds at over a 5% coupon to raise cash - odd that it has been talking about that $1bn undrawn bank line of credit (at much lower cost?) that never gets touched. Unusual to pay 3x the cost to get cash from elsewhere. Issuing a bond does not increase NTA.

Q's NTA could have been eroded to zero by mid August by the operating cash burn even if it had reduced to $40m/week. That Q has made no announcement on achieving that target suggests the reality is much worse. The deeper the digging into Q's financials the more precarious things look.

For example Q is assuming that due to not flying internationally until July 2021 will see QFF points predominantly stockpiled, not used for non-flight redemptions & overall redemptions will plummet (by more than 50% unadjusted, or by $800m worth vs 2019/20). Now given 3 months of 2019/20 were similar to the current environment for redemptions - that seems a heroic or perhaps wishful call IMHO. This is especially so if you remember how Q restricted QFF redemptions earlier.

Then Q has to pay out the first 6,000 redundancies (announced to be completed by 30 Sept, but nowhere near completed as of today, perhaps 2,000+ left to be decided, let alone paid out) costing $575m in redundancy costs + another $150m+ in accrued annual & long service leave, potential cancelled flight refunds > $2bn seemingly (Q mentioned that refunds requested but not paid by 30 June were removed from the $5bn "revenue received in advance" liability and lumped into 'current payables'), fuel & FX hedging losses totalling around $600m which got removed from 'operating costs' despite being related to operating costs when entered into & the profits earnt in the first half were taken into operating profits, $400m bond maturity, an extra $12m/month from September due to JobKeeper dropping down, around $200m required for Defined Benefit & SGC contributions...

Meanwhile Q stated (by not stating nor writing down the value of 298 of its fleet by even $1) that there is no reduction in the value of its fleet other than the 4 x 747-400s retired early ($23m) + the 12 A380s. If Q had written down the rest of the grounded International planes, spares, etc that it has officially stated it does not expect will fly until July 2021 - then Q's NTA would quite likely have been significantly below zero. AKA more debt than assets to pay it with - even if those assets may be somewhat over-valued.

Q's debt to equity ratio would also have been in 'imminent fail' territory as if not for the June 26th raising, would have seen equity around $200m vs liabilities (debt) of $18,500m, or 93x. Thanks to the raising (equity ended at $1,526m) the D/E ratio ended at 12x. With such low equity - any writedowns or operating losses can quickly become life threatening. Perhaps think of it this way - for every $3.65 institutions contributed in cash to buy a new share (cash = tangible asset) - just 4 days later they had only 17 cents Net Tangible Assets per share as at 30 June 2020. What is the old joke about becoming an aviation millionaire?

Remember earlier this year it was Q that restricted redemptions on QFF before VA did.

Perhaps, from an AFFer's perspective, a better measure of how desperate Q is for cash is the feedback from AFF posts detailing offers up to 20% additional travel credit if you push for a full cash refund. Equally that Q refused to pay out cash refunds at all until the ACCC was forced to act in June, even now Q does not appear to have any way to claim a full cash refund online &, from a relative's experience last Friday, are denying the partial use of the travel credit to pay for domestic flights (could not argue due to family emergency) - despite Q previously saying that could be done. Others report that Q automatically sent an email containing a flight credit for the 5+ months of flights cancelled through to March 28th, earlier this month. In clear breach of the ACCC directive to make customers aware they are entitled to a full cash refund & offer the choice.


Contrast that with Woolworths' strong cash position. Woolworths is about to eliminate the 5% discount for buying gift cards via affinity schemes this week to 3% and then reportedly remove it altogether in November. No cash flow problems there!

Bain

Much talk about stripping VA Mk II - there are no assets to strip. VA Mk II does not own land, buildings, readily saleable assets. But then again neither does Q - to generate enough franking credits for the buybacks Q has raided everything, even selling off Q catering last year. Q raided the franking credits for its ill-fated Nov 2019 buyback so much that it is actually will register $141m worth of franking debits with the ATO (p76 of the 2019/20 Annual Report).

What Bain does have is VFF which historically earns a fraction per account compared with QFF.

Q's 13+m QFF accounts generate over $90/account in revenue/year vs VA's 10m accounts providing a little over $40. That's the oyster that Bain is looking to cultivate - so for once - Bain's best interests & our own are very closely aligned.

Bain needs a functional domestic airline not a LCC. It also needs to offer international flight redemptions - so as it has announced, it is discussing (negotiating) with potential partners currently. Who knows how that will turn out but it would certainly be an interesting move if on November 30th they announce Qatar as a partner. Qatar is currently the largest operator into/out of Australia.


Certainly Bain can get it wrong, but with VFF cash-backed via a trust structure, I know which points I think are more at risk. Time for some shopping cards thanks QFF.
 
As do Velocity points now. Yet another of the new "improvements" foisted upon members without consultation. The only reason I was favouring Velocity points over QFF was for the convenience factor that they never expired. Then I started getting e-mails that unless I did something I was going to lose 130,000 points in 4 weeks. That change put them no better than QFF points, so really, that was the end for me. Velocity Amex is completely redundent now. Not even worth being in the wallet anymore. I'm glad I only had ~230,000 points to get rid of. I'd hate to be under the pressure of finding a way to make use of > 500K pts on stupid tat from the 'store' in light of no visible prospect for international flights again.
You can earn some Fly Buys points (via Coles) & transfer 2,000 FB points to VFF to keep them all alive if desired. Even better if you don't have a FB account with the 1,500 points (I think the current offer is) for new accounts.
 
Friend wants to keep their remaining VA2 points alive as didn’t get them out to SQ in time. Doesn’t do flybuys and obviously won’t be taking out a velocity CC.

Like Red Planet for QF is there a really easy way for them to earn like 1 point doing a survey or something ?
 
Friend wants to keep their remaining VA2 points alive as didn’t get them out to SQ in time. Doesn’t do flybuys and obviously won’t be taking out a velocity CC.

Like Red Planet for QF is there a really easy way for them to earn like 1 point doing a survey or something ?

There's e-rewards, e-Rewards, but points don't post quite as quickly, and unless it's changed you have to manually transfer
 
Hey all, I moved around 650k points to SQ sometime back just before they close it. It seems at the moment reading over here and checking on the page, they have yet to re-enable the transfer or they never will.

I still do have 350k points or so.. Do you reckon the best move now is just to redeem for gift cards or items that you potentially like from the velocity store?

What are people doing? I just saw the news about Scurrah resigning even though they said he won't be and etc. Seems my confidence in them is getting lower and lower.
 
Hey all, I moved around 650k points to SQ sometime back just before they close it. It seems at the moment reading over here and checking on the page, they have yet to re-enable the transfer or they never will.

I still do have 350k points or so.. Do you reckon the best move now is just to redeem for gift cards or items that you potentially like from the velocity store?

What are people doing? I just saw the news about Scurrah resigning even though they said he won't be and etc. Seems my confidence in them is getting lower and lower.

Say goodbye to your points.
 
Say goodbye to your points.

Hmm? I mean at this points its all speculation on what's going to happen to those points no?

That's why I'm asking what is others doing or are people just start to empty their VFF points altogether?
 
Hmm? I mean at this points its all speculation on what's going to happen to those points no?

That's why I'm asking what is others doing or are people just start to empty their VFF points altogether?
If you read the thread I think that you'll find that many of us, including myself, dumped our points MANY months ago.

March for me:

 
Hmm? I mean at this points its all speculation on what's going to happen to those points no?

That's why I'm asking what is others doing or are people just start to empty their VFF points altogether?
A friend and I emptied what we could pre-admin.

Many on this forum are redeeming since the resignation/firing of the last CEO and installation of the new CEO
 
Hmm? I mean at this points its all speculation on what's going to happen to those points no?

That's why I'm asking what is others doing or are people just start to empty their VFF points altogether?

Ok, quick history for context: so we had some insight from some very very well placed consultants here on AFF (user pauly7) that started warning people pre-covid that VA1 was looking very very shaky.

Most people held on at that point but as soon covid started unfurling and VA1 started showing public cracks, that’s when the massive rush for the exit started.

Most on here seemed to get out their points to SQ. Then that was shut down as Velocity started haemorrhaging. Then people started cashing out at the Velocity store. Then that hit mainstream news so That over a couple of weeks was slowly throttled down and then shut down completely. Then they collapsed.

Since the small reopening of the Velocity store people have been cashing out it seems mostly vouchers, as Bains plan for VA2 as a very small domestic only airline with unknown partnerships and lower market than we all expected, started to come to life.

So it is up to you, but many on here have already bailed on VA2 now via SQ before it closed and gift cards.
 
A friend and I emptied what we could pre-admin.

Many on this forum are redeeming since the resignation/firing of the last CEO and installation of the new CEO
Ok, quick history for context: so we had some insight from some very very well placed consultants here on AFF (user pauly7) that started warning people pre-covid that VA1 was looking very very shaky.

Most people held on at that point but as soon covid started unfurling and VA1 started showing public cracks, that’s when the massive rush for the exit started.

Most on here seemed to get out their points to SQ. Then that was shut down as Velocity started haemorrhaging. Then people started cashing out at the Velocity store. Then that hit mainstream news so That over a couple of weeks was slowly throttled down and then shut down completely. Then they collapsed.

Since the small reopening of the Velocity store people have been cashing out it seems mostly vouchers, as Bains plan for VA2 as a very small domestic only airline with unknown partnerships and lower market than we all expected, started to come to life.

So it is up to you, but many on here have already bailed on VA2 now via SQ before it closed and gift cards.

Thank you for that, yeah. Part of me wishes I should have just transferred the whole lot to SQ back then when I was still allowed to.

I might need to just redeem on stuff that I might not necessarily need and get something out of it in the event they devalued or scrap it altogether.
 
Redeem on stuff and do what a lot of people do, with unwanted gifts...
Yep, you guess it, sell it on ebay.
Joined:
Friend wants to keep their remaining VA2 points alive as didn’t get them out to SQ in time. Doesn’t do flybuys and obviously won’t be taking out a velocity CC.

Like Red Planet for QF is there a really easy way for them to earn like 1 point doing a survey or something ?
If s/he does not live in Vic, and can do it, try to find a hotel (if at all possible), one that wasn't a Medihotel, and book via VFF or what ever their new hotel provider is, and stay the night.
That should give him or her some breathing in and out slowly time, at least 2 years, to see what Bain does to VFF.
Sorry, one last blah.
Ereward can a pain in the posterior, or a bain in the behind... as you need to be invited to join.
I could not find a way to join, in the past, until I stayed at an Accor hotel, and it then offered me to join.
Surveys can also be very hard to come by, plus you need a tidy sum to do a transfer, 2k Erewards to 250 VFF I think was the last one I got.
If you are put out, because you didn't meet their criteria, you can 15/20 Erewards points as a "thank you".
 
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Friend wants to keep their remaining VA2 points alive as didn’t get them out to SQ in time. Doesn’t do flybuys and obviously won’t be taking out a velocity CC.

Like Red Planet for QF is there a really easy way for them to earn like 1 point doing a survey or something ?
If s/he does not live in Vic, and can do it, try to find a hotel (if at all possible), one that wasn't a Medihotel, and book via VFF or what ever their new hotel provider is, and stay the night.
That should give him or her some breathing in and out slowly time, at least 2 years, to see what Bain does to VFF.
 
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