Is Qantas Actually Listening?

[Buzzard]

I just booked some flights and they are not with Qantas

 

[Cruiser Elite]

I just booked some flights and they are not with Qantas

Jetstar?

 

[Meggsy]

From close examination over the last three or so years of Q's 'business strategy' I think it is fair to say they have already won the race to the bottom.

QI has been steadily piled up with Jetstar's cast-offs (767s for example) so that the operating cost difference makes QI even more dire. I pulled a series of examples out using the IATA data where for example when Jetstar had the 767s on a route where QI operated a more modern plane (generally at least 13 years newer) QI charged a fuel surcharge multiples of that charged by jetstar for the same route (say to Hawaii). The older planes not only cost more to fly per passenger km but are out of service significantly more often for maintenance and for longer periods. Yet Jetstar did not charge an appropriate fuel surcharge but were

While I agree with most of what you say here, when and where did Jetstar fly 767's. Genuine question as I don't recall them ever having anything but 717s at start up and a320/330 since.

 

[Buzzard]

Jetstar?

Dare I say Jetstar and Tiger. Embarrassing I know.

 

[mannej]

QI has been steadily piled up with Jetstar's cast-offs (767s for example) so that the operating cost difference makes QI even more dire. I pulled a series of examples out using the IATA data where for example when Jetstar had the 767s on a route where QI operated a more modern plane (generally at least 13 years newer) QI charged a fuel surcharge multiples of that charged by jetstar for the same route (say to Hawaii). The older planes not only cost more to fly per passenger km but are out of service significantly more often for maintenance and for longer periods. Yet Jetstar did not charge an appropriate fuel surcharge but were remarkably profitable...

Now that QI has those planes they are more unprofitable - something does not add up. Swapping the planes just before major scheduled maintenance overhauls is purely accidental of course.

Out of curiosity, when did JQ ever have 767's in their fleet? Are you thinking of the 330's? The funny thing is most of the 330's spent time with QF before they headed over to JQ.

 

[straitman]

Dare I say Jetstar and Tiger. Embarrassing I know.

I cannot find the dislike button :!:

 

[Princess Fiona]

I'm ashamed to say, I'm one of those FF who was pretty angry at the changes to OW partner earning and maybe like the majority who were upset, I said and did nothing.
I thank those who did more than rant and rave on the forums.
From my own perspective the changes have made me do something I never thought possible and that is looking at my future travel beyond LTG. I'm not there yet but I am accelerating my progression to it and continuing to explore opportunities in OW outside QFF.
I suspect I am not alone
I sincerely hope QF are listening.

 

[straitman]

I'm ashamed to say, I'm one of those FF who was pretty angry at the changes to OW partner earning and maybe like the majority who were upset, I said and did nothing.
I thank those who did more than rant and rave on the forums.
From my own perspective the changes have made me do something I never thought possible and that is looking at my future travel beyond LTG. I'm not there yet but I am accelerating my progression to it and continuing to explore opportunities in OW outside QFF.
I suspect I am not alone
I sincerely hope QF are listening.

Thanks for summing up my thoughts Princess.

 

[lovestotravel]

They are listening but little will change at this stage

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian makes me happy, to see one less JQ route

I will still fly 100% QF on domestic flights, even with perhaps a $20-$60 price difference because VA is pure rubbish

As long as I can get a decent meal in the J lounge for breaky and dinner I am pretty happy, and its seem a little more coin is being spent on food options of late, both breakfasts and dinners have improved

 

[kpc]

I'm ashamed to say, I'm one of those FF who was pretty angry at the changes to OW partner earning and maybe like the majority who were upset, I said and did nothing.
I thank those who did more than rant and rave on the forums.
From my own perspective the changes have made me do something I never thought possible and that is looking at my future travel beyond LTG. I'm not there yet but I am accelerating my progression to it and continuing to explore opportunities in OW outside QFF.
I suspect I am not alone
I sincerely hope QF are listening.

I have been QF Plat the last 5 years (and QF Gold for 4 years prior to that) I think, and about 2 years away from LTG....so I'll aim for that but will start looking elsewhere after that...I was PPS with SQ prior to reaching QF Plat, and I will be looking in that direction again. Sad to say, but I find the service, food and beverages in SQ J mostly superior to QF J....so QF do listen as I'm another one very unhappy with your recent "simpler and fairer" changes.

 

[lovestotravel]

Sad to say, but I find the service, food and beverages in SQ J mostly superior to QF J....so QF do listen as I'm another one very unhappy with your recent "simpler and fairer" changes.

It has been that way for years, not sure anything has changed over the past 12 months really, except for Cafe Breakfast

SQ J > QF J by A LONG SHOT

However, SQ really annoy me with their ongoing equipment changes on the MEL route

We lose the A380 in a few months and SYD loses 1 as well

 

[tjtecoma]

Like many I've finally given up on QF - it's all too depressing. I'd love to see them succeed but my loyalty has reached the limit. So as a Platinum flyer who has gone out of my way to fly QF over the years (eg. flying to Heathrow and then backtracking to Berlin just so I can do most of the trip on QF), over the last couple of weeks I've booked my next domestic work trips in Y on Virgin and my next two holiday trips in J on Air NZ to San Francisco and Cathay to Tokyo. It feels very strange to not care about status credits, first lounge access, etc - I'll probably regret the decision and come back with my tail between my legs, but at the moment it feels liberating.

 

[Pleb Status]

If QF are listening, I do not know who they are listening to. If asked, I do not know too many customers who would be happy with the recent changes they have made. Even if these changes were required for the future financial stability of the QF group, the changes have been implemented very poorly from a customer point of view.

I would of thought that the marketing of some of the changes would have been run through some focus groups etc to gauge the reaction and tailor the message a bit better to soften the blow. I cannot see how the 'fairer and simpler' campaign would have passed any bull#$%t test. QF could not even publish points tables etc that were correct at the time of announcement. I actually cannot think of way they could of annoyed and patronised more of their customers than they have with the 'fairer and simpler' campaign.

 

[kpc]

It has been that way for years, not sure anything has changed over the past 12 months really, except for Cafe Breakfast

SQ J > QF J by A LONG SHOT

Well, recently on a Syd-Lax flight in J, after take off, I was served a glass of wine and WAIT FOR IT, a packet of mixed pretzels and cashew nuts....I counted TWO cashew nuts in total:evil::evil::evil:. Pretzels in J class...on a 10K fare QF???

However, SQ really annoy me with their ongoing equipment changes on the MEL route

We lose the A380 in a few months and SYD loses 1 as well

I know...Syd loses one of the A380s but the 4 daily flights to Sin gives one great options and flexibility...the J seats in the 777-300ER (1615 departure) and A380 (1215 departure) are identical I think, and IMHO, the best J seats in the air atm.

 

[boomy]

Like everyone I also hope QF is listening.
I do find it a bit amusing how people use the term loyalty towards an airline. The way I see it, I was never married to QF and it's not a part of my family. If I choose to fly with them it's because they offer me a better product then others. If I choose to fly with other airlines I don't feel I am "cheating" on QF.
I guess I can be described as a "loyal" customer of QF because I fly with them a lot, for many years. But somehow I don't seem to feel the anger that so many others here on AFF feel. In my view, QF made some wrong business decisions and I will have to adjust. If it that means flying other airlines more often, so be it.
Maybe something good will come out of all this for some people who will stop chasing status and save a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, chasing status is good fun if you can afford it but in the end of the day it's an expensive game. If you are a FF then you get the status anyway, if not then why bother spending hundreds of dollars just to drink a few glasses of champagne in the F lounge once or twice a year.
There are plenty of good airlines out there that can be used when flying overseas, the airline industry doesn't revolve around QF.
Domestically is another story unfortunately. Not many options there. VA can't be taken seriously for business travel and I'm not a big fan of JQ either.

 

[eminere]

I know...Syd loses one of the A380s but the 4 daily flights to Sin gives one great options and flexibility...the J seats in the 777-300ER (1615 departure) and A380 (1215 departure) are identical I think, and IMHO, the best J seats in the air atm.

They're my favourite J seat so far as well. Have yet to try any of the ME airlines though.

 

[MYT105]

I was at a Qantas market survey the other night in Sydney, along with 7 other QF Plat's and all were of the same opinion that the last round of enhancements were the final straw and that QF were pushing it to far, so they are finding out what people are thinking so it will be interesting to see if they react.

 

[RooFlyer]

I'm ashamed to say, I'm one of those FF who was pretty angry at the changes to OW partner earning and maybe like the majority who were upset, I said and did nothing.
I thank those who did more than rant and rave on the forums.
From my own perspective the changes have made me do something I never thought possible and that is looking at my future travel beyond LTG. I'm not there yet but I am accelerating my progression to it and continuing to explore opportunities in OW outside QFF.
I suspect I am not alone
I sincerely hope QF are listening.

I'm beyond the stage of contacting Qantas to vent my frustration and to appeal the reversal of some of the recent asinine decisions.

Simply voted with feet; as I mentioned in another thread, about 25 sectors coming up (21 international) and only 1 domestic sector on QF amongst the lot. To hell with them; I'm not looking back.

 

[medhead]

I don't care if Qantas is listening. They've made they choice, I'll make mine.

 

[RAM]

While I agree with most of what you say here, when and where did Jetstar fly 767's. Genuine question as I don't recall them ever having anything but 717s at start up and a320/330 since.

Mea Culpa - never assume (cough/U/ME) You are spot on they did not fly the 767s.

I guessed but did not check why the fuel burn was higher for JQ. Looking through the fleet history now proves it was not 767s in use but As. I wish I had gone the extra step and checked the airframe in use at the time. Pulling out some other info I downloaded in 2012 shows the relative loading of costs out of the fare for Q so that total 'fare' component is higher for JQ (so generates higher commission for TAs) while Q has highest total cost due to fuel surcharge. Curious when total fuel surcharge is nearly the same as some JQ fares & taxes in total (flights to Japan offered at $199 one way for example).

Still fuel surcharge, carbon tax and what is in the fare vs surcharges & taxes (for commissions, FF redemptions etc) and fuel use can be seen from an excerpt below from some 2012 data I pulled out.

... So Q engineers the result it wants, TAs prefer JQ on commission basis, FFs get much cheaper classic awards using JQ (not mega tax & surcharge add on to points), and QI looks a dog from profitability to get the result that Q Mgmt seem to want.

Interestingly enough the carbon tax should have been higher for the JQ flight!!!! Based on the actual scheduled aircraft for both Q and JQ


Mileage

• 10148 total miles

CO2 emissions

• 2976 lbs (estimated by ITA) for JQ
• 2868 lbs (estimated by ITA) for Q

Not exactly what a passenger may have thought looking at the detailed fare break up is it? [FONT=&quot]Fly Q for lower carbon generation[/FONT] - how's that for a new ad campaign?

Time for less spin and more actual analysis of the facts. Note no YQ or YR surcharge for JQ although it uses more fuel for the flight than Q on this route.

[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD] Fare 1: Carrier JQ NHOW2 SYD to HNL

Passenger type ADT, one-way fare, booking code N Covers SYD-HNL (Economy)

[/TD]
[TD] AU$617.81

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Fare 2: Carrier JQ OHOW2 HNL to SYD

Passenger type ADT, one-way fare, booking code O Covers HNL-SYD (Economy)

[/TD]
[TD] AU$667.81
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US International Arrival Tax (US)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$17.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Int'l Passenger Service Charge (WY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$25.92
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Passenger Movement Charge (AU)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$55.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Customs Fee (YC)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$5.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Immigration Fee (XY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$7.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] USDA APHIS Fee (XA)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$5.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US September 11th Security Fee (AY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$2.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US International Departure Tax (US)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$17.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Int'l Passenger Service Charge (WY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$25.92
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Subtotal per passenger
[/TD]
[TD] AU$1,447.24
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Number of passengers
[/TD]
[TD] x1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Total airfare & taxes
[/TD]
[TD] AU$1,447.24
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

• This ticket is non-refundable.
• Changes to this ticket will incur a penalty fee.
• No changes may be made to this ticket after departure.

Fare construction

SYD JQ HNL 607.17NHOW2 JQ SYD 656.31OHOW2 NUC 1263.48 END ROE 1.017522 XT 55.00AU 51.84WY 5.60YC 7.10XY 5.10XA 34.00US 2.60AY

And for Q
[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD] Fare 1: Carrier QF NKHNL SYD to HNL
Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code N
Covers SYD-HNL (Economy)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$564.50
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Fare 2: Carrier QF NKHNL HNL to SYD
Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code N
Covers HNL-SYD (Economy)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$564.50
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] (YQ)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$350.00

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] QF YR surcharge (YR)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$30.00

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] USDA APHIS Fee (XA)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$5.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Immigration Fee (XY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$7.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Customs Fee (YC)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$5.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Passenger Movement Charge (AU)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$55.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Int'l Passenger Service Charge (WY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$25.92
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US International Arrival Tax (US)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$17.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Int'l Passenger Service Charge (WY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$25.92
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US International Departure Tax (US)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$17.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US September 11th Security Fee (AY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$2.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Passenger Facility Charge (XF)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$4.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Subtotal per passenger
[/TD]
[TD] AU$1,674.84
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Number of passengers
[/TD]
[TD] x1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Total airfare & taxes
[/TD]
[TD] AU$1,674.84
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

• This ticket is non-refundable.
• Changes to this ticket will incur a penalty fee.

Fare construction (can be useful to travel agents)
SYD QF HNL 554.77NKHNL QF SYD 554.77NKHNL NUC 1109.54 END ROE 1.017522 XT 55.00AU 51.84WY 5.60YC 7.10XY 5.10XA 34.00US 2.60AY 350.00YQ 30.00YR 4.60XF HNL4.50


If you make a points booking you pay the surcharges & taxes on top of the points. Doing a comparison on QI award bookings - it was cheaper for me to buy a QI business class (BA code share) LHR-FRA ticket online than the surcharges and taxes on a QI classic award booking for exact same seat and flight - go figure? Mind you I never got the FF points for it and after the third attempt I gave up.

This is a great (terrible depending on viewpoint) example a SYD/LAX rtn July 18 July 29 fare. Good way to avoid award point QI redemptions and lower patronage even further.
[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD] Fare 1: Carrier QF OLSP2 SYD to LAX

Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code O
Covers SYD-LAX (Economy)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$305.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Fare 2: Carrier QF QLSP2 LAX to SYD

Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code Q
Covers LAX-SYD (Economy)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$430.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] (YQ)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$680.00 So rewards booking - surcharge is more than fare component = RIP OFF (If the $305 fare class was available both ways)

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] (YR)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$30.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] USDA APHIS Fee (XA)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$5.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Immigration Fee (XY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$7.10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Customs Fee (YC)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$5.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Passenger Movement Charge (AU)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$55.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Int'l Passenger Service Charge (WY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$25.92
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US International Arrival Tax (US)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$17.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Australian Int'l Passenger Service Charge (WY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$25.92
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US International Departure Tax (US)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$17.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US September 11th Security Fee (AY)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$2.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] US Passenger Facility Charge (XF)
[/TD]
[TD] AU$4.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Subtotal per passenger
[/TD]
[TD] AU$1,610.84
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Number of passengers
[/TD]
[TD] x1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Total airfare & taxes
[/TD]
[TD] AU$1,610.84
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[FONT=&quot]



Different cost allocation will engineer different P/L results. See Qantas media Release below:

"From 5 April 2012, Qantas will also increase the fuel surcharge for Qantas Frequent Flyer Classic Award redemption tickets by $4 for domestic travel (from $12 to $16) and by $10 for Trans-Tasman flights (from $20 to $30).

Jetstar will also increase fares on [/FONT][FONT=&quot]some [/FONT][FONT=&quot] routes within both its Singapore and Australian markets, as well as some service charges, in response to higher fuel costs."

So despite fuel costs rising equally (per litre) only some JQ routes would see their prices rise. Unusual then that there was no fall in the profitability of JQ but there was a drop in QI.

[/FONT]