Is there anybody who play with system to make more points ????

[docjames]

I'm sorry but this is borderline defrauding both the merchant and the credit card companies.

I'm disappointed this thread remains open as it implies it's a tolerable behaviour.

At the end of the day, admin owns the forum, and serfty is moderating this "room", so their decision stands (not arguing that side of things) but just wanted to express my disappointment.

 

[auriga]

How about overpaying the ATO, and then getting a tax refund?

I guess the lag time may be a bit too long.

 

[FL360]

Talking about unethical...

1. How about those people accumulating QF (or any FF) points from COMPANY PAID flights, and keep the points and SCs for their PERSONAL use ?

2. How about those people put corporate expenses to their personal credit card, getting the company to pay for it and accumulating points, again, for their personal use ?

3. Companies realise point 1 is actually happening, and do nothing even it is in the grey area for FBT reporting ?

For some big companies 1-3 is actually banned, however for many smaller size companies it is the norm.....

 

[ejb]

Talking about unethical...

1. How about those people accumulating QF (or any FF) points from COMPANY PAID flights, and keep the points and SCs for their PERSONAL use ?

2. How about those people put corporate expenses to their personal credit card, getting the company to pay for it and accumulating points, again, for their personal use ?

3. Companies realise point 1 is actually happening, and do nothing even it is in the grey area for FBT reporting ?

For some big companies 1-3 is actually banned, however for many smaller size companies it is the norm.....

I disagree strongly.

1.The company sends the employee away and the program rules state the points/SC's are accrued by the person flying not the company. The company has no claim over the points/SC's and as such no FBT is incurred as the points/SC's have no monetary value.
2.If the expense is legit the company has lost nothing by the employee paying on his/her own credit card and earning points. Again the points have no monetary value.
3.No FBT is due on points/SC's as they HAVE NO VALUE.

The OP in this thread was proposing FRAUD and you are comparing it to legitimate transactions.

BTW I am self employed so do not earn points/SC's on someone elses money.

ejb

 

[oz_mark]

For some big companies 1-3 is actually banned, however for many smaller size companies it is the norm.....

And in some companies it is specifically allowed

 

[Davo70]

Talking about unethical...

1. How about those people accumulating QF (or any FF) points from COMPANY PAID flights, and keep the points and SCs for their PERSONAL use ?

2. How about those people put corporate expenses to their personal credit card, getting the company to pay for it and accumulating points, again, for their personal use ?

3. Companies realise point 1 is actually happening, and do nothing even it is in the grey area for FBT reporting ?

For some big companies 1-3 is actually banned, however for many smaller size companies it is the norm.....

I agree with ejb - can't see how any of this is unethical.

In my situation if my employer sends me away I'm not getting paid any more for being away from my family. They don't pay me when I have to fly on weekends or after hours (i.e. on my time) to get to meetings etc. It's not the company who's at risk of getting DVT or who picks up coughs and colds "shared" by fellow air travellers. To me a few SCs / points here and there sometimes (but not always) feels like it makes up for the above.

Also, if my employer chooses not to issue me with a business c/c then what option have I got other than to use my personal card or cash and get reimbursed ?

 

[harvyk]

Talking about unethical...

1. How about those people accumulating QF (or any FF) points from COMPANY PAID flights, and keep the points and SCs for their PERSONAL use ?

2. How about those people put corporate expenses to their personal credit card, getting the company to pay for it and accumulating points, again, for their personal use ?

3. Companies realise point 1 is actually happening, and do nothing even it is in the grey area for FBT reporting ?

For some big companies 1-3 is actually banned, however for many smaller size companies it is the norm.....

I don't see this as unethical at all.

Infact last week I took one of my employees to MEL... I insisted he signed up to the QF FF (via wollies so it was free) before we went as I didn't like the idea of paying good money, and yet having no points collected when it was going to cost no more to collect those points.

The way I see it is they provide a perk (eg cheap tickets \ upgrades etc...) for the employee which hasn't cost us a cent.

As to the FBT implications, this is a problem for lots of taxmen right around the world. Points have no real value, and the value of the point varies greatly depending on how you use it eg CBR - AKL return in Y = $744 \ 36000 points or 2c per point, CBR - AKL return in J = $2570 \ 72000 points or 3.5c per point - thus the reason I used J for my last awards flight , so the question remains, what value do you assign a point?

 

[FL360]

What I can say is it is a grey area.

Just like you buy 10 coffees for your colleages and you get the 11th cup for free, you have the free coffee, which has no monetary value, however you also pay nothing for it... your colleages' contribute to your free coffee which you enjoy... technically the people who pay owns the free coffee...

For Qantas points do have monetary value, they are selling them...

As for overtime business travel, it is a according to your employment contract, some will state that if salary is over $X you are not entitled OT payment. If under OT is $X/hr.... As for DVT / injuries I think it is under workers' comp ??

But if OT's only intent to go ahead with the purchase is to obtain the points and refund the goods then it is definitely a waste of merchant's resources... then again if points have no monetary value is he/she stealing anything ???

 

[harvyk]

For Qantas points do have monetary value, they are selling them...

Ah but here is the real interesting point... I can purchase QF points (within certain limits) and I can give or take points from family members. I however can not transfer those points to other people who are not family members, nor am I permitted to sell those points to a 3rd party.

I can use those points to purchase goods and \ or services for my own personal use, and technically once I have purchased an item using points there is nothing stopping me from taking that item to cash converters.

But that could technically be using points which I gained three years ago, so which tax rate do you apply given the point has no value assigned to it until it is used? Do you use the tax rate from three years ago when the point was first earned, but before the points value was realised, or do you use todays tax rate, when the points value was realised, but three years after the point was earnt?

Furthermore just to throw another spanner in the works do you have to pay taxes on discounts received at other shops, eg the buy this TV and we'll throw in a free popcorn maker... Do you have to pay tax on that? Points are simply a way of saying "I don't need a popcorn maker right now, but I'll be back in three weeks and I'll take a free DVD player instead"

 

[Travel Guru]

But if OT's only intent to go ahead with the purchase is to obtain the points and refund the goods then it is definitely a waste of merchant's resources... then again if points have no monetary value is he/she stealing anything ???

Of course the points have a monetary value and to suggest otherwise is naive.

Do you think the CC companies just give you the points out of the generosity of own kind souls? I dont think so.

The merchant who the OP is intending to defraud is paying for those point by way of their merchant fees etc, there's no such thing as ripping someone off and it not costing any money.

Fraud is fraud, and I agree that this thread should be closed as it detracts on the entire forum to have it remain open and have people debate the legality and morality of doing something like that.

TG

 

[Moody]

Of course the points have a monetary value and to suggest otherwise is naive.

Do you think the CC companies just give you the points out of the generosity of own kind souls? I dont think so.

The merchant who the OP is intending to defraud is paying for those point by way of their merchant fees etc, there's no such thing as ripping someone off and it not costing any money.

Fraud is fraud, and I agree that this thread should be closed as it detracts on the entire forum to have it remain open and have people debate the legality and morality of doing something like that.

TG

I think it is a bit strong to claim that this thread is lowering the tone of AFF as from my point of view there are far worse things being promoted by regular members of this site. And I am fairly sure that the technique suggested by the author will not work unless the retailer is particularly stupid.

As for the morality of keeping points earned via business travel - I think this has been brought up before and the main problem is that public servants (including pollies) are supposed to use the points to subsidise business travel whilst the rest of us are free to keep them to ourselves. Seems like a double standard but for some reason we live in a 2-tier society.

 

[ejb]

I think it is a bit strong to claim that this thread is lowering the tone of AFF as from my point of view there are far worse things being promoted by regular members of this site. And I am fairly sure that the technique suggested by the author will not work unless the retailer is particularly stupid.

As for the morality of keeping points earned via business travel - I think this has been brought up before and the main problem is that public servants (including pollies) are supposed to use the points to subsidise business travel whilst the rest of us are free to keep them to ourselves. Seems like a double standard but for some reason we live in a 2-tier society.

Please remember however that the OP was promoting FRAUD to get points, not flying for work or donating to charity, he was proposing FRAUD:!:

So complaining about societies class structure has no place here.

FRAUD is illegal and should not be promoted on AFF:evil:

ejb

 

[Reggie]

I dont agree with the OP. However Admin has allowed the thread to stay open, so if you are not happy about it, don't read the thread, stop posting on the thread and it will make a slow slide in to the depths of the forum, to be soon forgotten.

 

[Moody]

Please remember however that the OP was promoting FRAUD to get points, not flying for work or donating to charity, he was proposing FRAUD:!:

So complaining about societies class structure has no place here.

FRAUD is illegal and should not be promoted on AFF:evil:

ejb

As you are the guardian of moral standards on this forum, perhaps you can comment on this scenario :-

• A retailer delivers a brochure to my letterbox advertising a super-special on an item I want to buy immediately - but the catalogue doesn't come in for nearly a week.
• I buy the item anyway at the usual price and use it for a week
• I go back to the store and buy the same item again at the bargain price. Upon completing the purchase I do a U-turn to the help desk and tell them I want to return an unwanted item. I hand across the week-old receipt and get a refund for the full price.
• Outcome - I get the special price before the retailer was intending to provide it.

So is this fraud and is it any worse than people exploiting other offers where the retailer didn't think things through enough (like the Amex bonus points for transacations debacle), or where they fly around purely for the sake of their egos (aka "status runs")?

 

[oz_mark]

As you are the guardian of moral standards on this forum, perhaps you can comment on this scenario :-

• A retailer delivers a brochure to my letterbox advertising a super-special on an item I want to buy immediately - but the catalogue doesn't come in for nearly a week.
• I buy the item anyway at the usual price and use it for a week
• I go back to the store and buy the same item again at the bargain price. Upon completing the purchase I do a U-turn to the help desk and tell them I want to return an unwanted item. I hand across the week-old receipt and get a refund for the full price.
• Outcome - I get the special price before the retailer was intending to provide it.

So is this fraud and is it any worse than people exploiting other offers where the retailer didn't think things through enough (like the Amex bonus points for transacations debacle), or where they fly around purely for the sake of their egos (aka "status runs")?

I'd either try to get them to offer the price early, or get some other store to price match it

How is doing a status run anything like fraud? Seems to be a completely legitimate transaction where a service is paid for and provided.

 

[FL360]

I think this thread does have its existing value, it allow us, as AFFs, to debate one of the important topic of whether points have monetary values or not.

According to some who accumulates points from business travel and keeping them for personal use they have no monetary value and have no FBT implications, although as harvyk points out you can use points to exchange for flights and goods which can be turned to cash...

In a practical point of view points do have monetary value (TG), and OP's strategy does waste merchants resources and I believe most merchants do have strict re-fund / re-stock rules and admin fees for refunds etc to combat this...

as a side question, the points which politicians accumulated from government official business travel... can they use them for personal travel ? Do they need to declare them ?? anyone knows ?

I dont agree with the OP. However Admin has allowed the thread to stay open, so if you are not happy about it, don't read the thread, stop posting on the thread and it will make a slow slide in to the depths of the forum, to be soon forgotten.

 

[ejb]

As you are the guardian of moral standards on this forum, perhaps you can comment on this scenario :-

• A retailer delivers a brochure to my letterbox advertising a super-special on an item I want to buy immediately - but the catalogue doesn't come in for nearly a week.
• I buy the item anyway at the usual price and use it for a week
• I go back to the store and buy the same item again at the bargain price. Upon completing the purchase I do a U-turn to the help desk and tell them I want to return an unwanted item. I hand across the week-old receipt and get a refund for the full price.
• Outcome - I get the special price before the retailer was intending to provide it.

So is this fraud and is it any worse than people exploiting other offers where the retailer didn't think things through enough (like the Amex bonus points for transacations debacle), or where they fly around purely for the sake of their egos (aka "status runs")?

I certainly don't consider myself a moral guardian. However your examples are strange. AMEX offered a promotion which was followed by some to the letter, they received points the points they were entitled. A status run is not fraudulent as a person buys a ticket and takes a journey earning SC's. Is a flight only for a worthwhile cause able to earn SC's?

The OP was proposing a situation were a person would try to circumvent the terms of a transaction, ie. when you return goods the refund is given in the same manner the purchase was undertaken. This is clearly a case of fraud as he was trying to gain a benefit by deceit.


ejb

 

[ejb]

I think this thread does have its existing value, it allow us, as AFFs, to debate one of the important topic of whether points have monetary values or not.

According to some who accumulates points from business travel and keeping them for personal use they have no monetary value and have no FBT implications, although as harvyk points out you can use points to exchange for flights and goods which can be turned to cash...

In a practical point of view points do have monetary value (TG), and OP's strategy does waste merchants resources and I believe most merchants do have strict re-fund / re-stock rules and admin fees for refunds etc to combat this...

as a side question, the points which politicians accumulated from government official business travel... can they use them for personal travel ? Do they need to declare them ?? anyone knows ?

FL360,

There have been many stories in the news of pollies using points for personal travel so I assume it is allowed otherwise we would have heard. I have heard however that public servants are prevented from earning points as it keepd the cost of travel down (it is in the QF contract that points will not be awarded I have been told).

ejb

 

[trooper]

I have a friend who travels regularly in her work for a certain Govt Department...

She doesn't get to use the points/miles.. but she does get the benefit of SC's (or equivalent) as far as Status goes...

And while there seems to be a perception that public servants always fly QF, she in fact is put on whichever airline has the "Best fare of the Day"..

Her last trip was on EK.. her next is on TG.....

 

[serfty]

The reality is that there are many Public servants (including those working for the ATO) and Pollies who travel in relation to their employment, in many cases accumulating award miles/points etc. with this travel.

Many of these people would not want to see such award miles/points become taxable for their own personal reasons.

It's similar to the "Reasonable Expense Limits" which many consider to be quite generous. (More on the here: Keeping travel expense records )