Is there such a thing as earning points for free?

[Mattg]

I was chatting with @WilsonM and he suggested that every time you earn points, you're effectively buying them in one way or another (at varying costs, including sometimes at very good value, and not always for money).

For example, if you get a credit card sign-up bonus, you still need to pay the annual fee and complete a minimum spend on the card. If you earn Flybuys points shopping at Coles, you still need to buy groceries to get those points - and if you convert 2,000 Flybuys points into 1,000 Velocity points, you're giving up a $10 shopping discount. If you pay for something with a credit card, you still have to buy the product (and sometimes pay a card surcharge).

I suggested that earning points for completing your step challenges in the Qantas Wellbeing app is free, but Wilson pointed out that you are still giving up some of your data in exchange for those points. Or there could be an opportunity cost, e.g. your time spent completing a Red Planet survey.

I personally would say that points are "free" if you're paying no marginal cost just for those points for something you were going to do/buy anyway. But is that a correct way of looking at it?

What do you think?

 

[kamchatsky]

I was chatting with @WilsonM and he suggested that every time you earn points, you're effectively buying them in one way or another (at varying costs, including sometimes at very good value, and not always for money).

For example, if you get a credit card sign-up bonus, you still need to pay the annual fee and complete a minimum spend on the card. If you earn Flybuys points shopping at Coles, you still need to buy groceries to get those points - and if you convert 2,000 Flybuys points into 1,000 Velocity points, you're giving up a $10 shopping discount. If you pay for something with a credit card, you still have to buy the product (and sometimes pay a card surcharge).

I suggested that earning points for completing your step challenges in the Qantas Wellbeing app is free, but Wilson pointed out that you are still giving up some of your data in exchange for those points. Or there could be an opportunity cost, e.g. your time spent completing a Red Planet survey.

I personally would say that points are "free" if you're paying no marginal cost just for those points for something you were going to do/buy anyway. But is that a correct way of looking at it?

What do you think?

Generally, if it is free, then you are the product.

 

[NM]

Earning FF points for flights paid by someone else?? (e.g. an employer).

 

[Forg]

They are NEVER free, but a lot of the time you pay the same for a good or product or service as everyone else who is also funding it, so from your POV it's being funded by others. Same as when you're not charged a fee for using credit cards but others pay the same for cash.

Earning FF points for flights paid by someone else?? (e.g. an employer).

It's built into their cost-vs-profit model, if they're paying more for something then they can't pay you as much.

 

[Human]

The business owner who puts company spending on the corporate credit card and then pockets the points for themselves?

 

[RooFlyer]

I personally would say that points are "free" if you're paying no marginal cost just for those points for something you were going to do/buy anyway. But is that a correct way of looking at it?

I would say yes.

For example, if you get a credit card sign-up bonus, you still need to pay the annual fee and complete a minimum spend on the card.

You can avoid the annual fee in many cases (eg the monthly cards with a hurdle $ spend gets the monthly fee waived). And in respect of points for spend, if I'm going to do the spending anyway, then the points are definitely free.

I would also say with bonus point offers, the bonus points are free, as long as the price of the good or service hasn't changed over the non bonus period pricing.

Also, the Accor & Qantas mutual points partnership. As far as I can see, there isn't any differential pricing if you book Accor as a Qantas FF member and as an Accor member Vs just Accor, so the Qantas points would then seem to be free when you stay with Accor.

 

[33kft]

You are not always paying for the points, and that is a provable fact. Some people don't earn points because they don't participate in loyalty programs or make use of points promos, and unless you are paying more than they are, then they are subsidising your points.

You might be paying for a proportion, but you are also getting something for free. It may not all be free, but some of it is.

One example: Accor. A proportion of customers will be ALL members, a smaller proportion have a linked airline membership. They pay no more than the general public (less, actually) to book directly with the hotel. How exactly is the individual directly paying for those QF points in that instance?

 

[levelnine]

Yes, and people tend to underestimate the cost of purchasing points.

They tend to forget that:
- when they pay a credit card surcharge and there was an alternative free payment method, they are purchasing those points;
- when they pay for a product that earns points, there is often a cheaper alternative without points;
- when they are redeeming points, they are getting less value than they think because (a) they are using the wrong comparator (ie they are comparing a Qantas classic award with a Qantas cash fare when they should be comparing it to the cheaper Singapore Airlines cash fare) & (b) they would have never paid the full cash price in the first place.

 

[SYD]

Earning FF points for flights paid by someone else?? (e.g. an employer).

Not to mention points earned on the Corp CC (for those flights and hotels and other stuff). And no CC fee either! Although AMEX will charge you at least one MR fee.

I otherwise I work on the premise that if I’m paying for something on CC (without a surcharge), then those FF points are “free”.

 

[WilsonM]

Also, the Accor & Qantas mutual points partnership. As far as I can see, there isn't any differential pricing if you book Accor as a Qantas FF member and as an Accor member Vs just Accor, so the Qantas points would then seem to be free when you stay with Accor.

One example: Accor. A proportion of customers will be ALL members, a smaller proportion have a linked airline membership. They pay no more than the general public (less, actually) to book directly with the hotel. How exactly is the individual directly paying for those QF points in that instance?

The Accor-Qantas partnership helps you get a set of bonus points, sure. But acquiring these points still required a cost to you - in this case, booking and paying for a hotel - yes, you're better off than someone who didn't link their accounts, but you still paid money to get points. It's not whether you're paying extra to get points, but rather if you're paying at all - you definitely outlaid cash to get these points, regardless of whether they're Accor, Qantas, Qatar, Flying Blue etc.

I guess this comes down to what does 'free' mean - If the car salesman says the cool rims were free because I paid the same as the list price of the car, did you actually get it for free? I can 100% see the merit of both sides, although I'm inclined to say no, they're not free.

 

[elanshin]

I would argue that no points are "free", however you as the customer may in some circumstances receive it for "free" (depending on how you define "free"). Often in those cases, the merchants (through CC fees) are the ones paying for your points.

Like for example, if you use a CC to purchase something without surcharge fees.
While you as the consumer did not get charged anything extra for something that you may already need, the transactions and fees that are baked in for the merchant is the fee. Now you could argue that in theory the merchant has already priced that into the goods/services they offer you hence why there's no surcharge but it would be an invisible cost.

Thus it ultimately comes down to how you define "free". But there is no such thing as a "free" point, just who paid for it.

 

[RooFlyer]

The Accor-Qantas partnership helps you get a set of bonus points, sure. But acquiring these points still required a cost to you - in this case, booking and paying for a hotel - yes, you're better off than someone who didn't link their accounts, but you still paid money to get points. I

I adopted mattg's definition No additional cost over what you were going to do anyway (and no mark-up).

I'd say Accor/QFF is definitely free points. @levelnine , I pay the usual CC surcharge when paying Accor - but Qantas gives me points as well.

 

[33kft]

Another point on this that I think is worth raising is that whilst we are in one way or another paying for points promos (eg via marketing budget), we're also paying all the other budgeted costs, including keeping the lights on and employing people to answer the phones and funding their legal teams to write the inane T&C documents that often accompany these promos.

For as long as the argument is that we are paying indirectly for these things I think it is worthwhile to point out that I'd rather fund a marketing budget that returns a useful commodity than to fund TV ads that I wouldn't watch.

 

[Blinky]

Sorry, but anyone who thinks picking up FF points on fares paid by others are free are really on the wrong track. Yes flyers do things willingly, but getting up at 4am to catch a 6.30am flight to attend a 9.30am meeting is not without cost to the flyer. Which I have often had to explain to non-flyers I worked with.

 

[33kft]

But acquiring these points still required a cost to you - in this case, booking and paying for a hotel

Of course. If there were no activity associated with the point earn, how would it work? We all get rationed our serve of points from birth?

 

[elanshin]

Also, the Accor & Qantas mutual points partnership. As far as I can see, there isn't any differential pricing if you book Accor as a Qantas FF member and as an Accor member Vs just Accor, so the Qantas points would then seem to be free when you stay with Accor.

One example: Accor. A proportion of customers will be ALL members, a smaller proportion have a linked airline membership. They pay no more than the general public (less, actually) to book directly with the hotel. How exactly is the individual directly paying for those QF points in that instance?

The Accor-Qantas partnership helps you get a set of bonus points, sure. But acquiring these points still required a cost to you - in this case, booking and paying for a hotel - yes, you're better off than someone who didn't link their accounts, but you still paid money to get points. It's not whether you're paying extra to get points, but rather if you're paying at all - you definitely outlaid cash to get these points, regardless of whether they're Accor, Qantas, Qatar, Flying Blue etc.

I would argue a different perspective. The ALL-QF (or ALL-QR etc) does generate you additional points over someone that isn't using it. However the otehr person may feel free to explore all sorts of other options - both flights and hotels and thus this is where the murky blurred lines of the cost is hard to figure out (and deliberately so).

Basically examples like this is where they have taken on the cost of the points to hopefully entice loyalty and thus pay off in the long run. It's very hard to calculate the cost but it's arguably not "free".

 

[WilsonM]

I adopted mattg's definition No additional cost over what you were going to do anyway (and no mark-up).

I'd say Accor/QFF is definitely free points.

That's completely fair (I edited my above post sorry) - and I think the definition of free, as @elanshin pointed out, is subjective.

Of course. If there were no activity associated with the point earn, how would it work? We all get rationed our serve of points from birth?

That's exactly my point there has to be some activity associated with it, usually with outlay of cash. Does this mean we can't take advantage of it? Of course not, and many actively do. Points are a great tool to get heavy discounts, but not for free as it cost something to get the points.

This 'gripe' mainly came up when watching an Instagram reel saying something along the lines of "I paid $5.60 for this flight, because I know how to use points". No, that's just not true.

 

[levelnine]

I'd say Accor/QFF is definitely free points. @levelnine , I pay the usual CC surcharge when paying Accor - but Qantas gives me points as well.

What you're referring to is points optimisation rather than cost-free points acquisition.

It's like GC double dipping — getting bonus points for a Coles GC then using that GC to pay for your Coles groceries instead of paying with your CC directly.

In both cases, you're still paying — you're just optimising the return for your payment. And companies love points optimisers because they're heavily invested in the system and change their behaviour to acquire more points.

In the Accor/QF example, it is encouraging you to stay at Accor when there might be a perfectly suitable alternative next door for less cash.

 

[33kft]

However the otehr person may feel free to explore all sorts of other options - both flights and hotels and thus this is where the murky blurred lines of the cost is hard to figure out (and deliberately so).

I would argue that this only matters if it had anything to do with selecting the product in the first place. Maybe it did, but if it was the product you wanted regardless, then the points are just additional value?

In my case I already have an affinity based on the loyalty program, the points are just cream on top.

 

[elanshin]

This 'gripe' mainly came up when watching an Instagram reel saying something along the lines of "I paid $5.60 for this flight, because I know how to use points". No, that's just not true.

This is just mainly clickbait for the new age uninitiated. For most people that have been playing the points game for a while, the concept of cents/point cost has likely been ingrained in a long while.

But you need to get views and clicks - probably referals too in the long game with these things.
It's probably more factually correct to say something like "I got it for 20% of the retail cost" but that doesn't have the same clickbait.

I think I explained it to my friend the other day who in theory had the means for the points game.
"You're not going to be realistically reducing your costs to just taxes + fees and economy is also not good value to be engaging in points game. But if you want to get significantly discounted premium tickets, thats what the points game is for. You'd still likely outlay more for than flying Scoot from SYD <> SIN, but you will be doing it a significant discount to the retail product cost: