Is there such a thing as earning points for free?

[elanshin]

All points are free if you choose a sub-optimal comparator.

$100 dinner at a restaurant

Person A: Pays cash
Person B: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 but forgets to enroll in Qantas Frequent Flyer program
Person C: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 and is enrolled in the program.

Person C looking at Person B: 'I pay exactly the same and get QFF points. Show me the extra cost to me of gaining those QFF points when I'm doing and paying exactly what I would have done anyway.'

You can keep 'lol'-ing and make your condescending remarks, but you forgot to address my q above - can you tell me the extra cost of gaining the QFF points in an Accor stay with accounts linked Vs not having accounts linked with the exact same costs?

It's irrelevant to this example that I could get the room cheaper somewhere else. I could sleep on the street for that matter. If I do choose to book and stay with Accor (because I never use third party sites to book), in one case I pay X and get no QFF points. In the other, I pay exactly the same and get QFF points. Show me the extra cost to me of gaining those QFF points when I'm doing and paying exactly what I would have done anyway.

And it's hardly a 'hack of the system'' when its widely promoted by Accor and QFF .

I think you both have valid arguments and it just comes down to subjective personal preferences.

Overall there are definitely "free" points for the individual, but nothing as a "free" point in the grand scheme of things overall.

 

[RooFlyer]

All points are free if you choose a sub-optimal comparator.

$100 dinner at a restaurant

Person A: Pays cash
Person B: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 but forgets to enroll in Qantas Frequent Flyer program
Person C: Pays with a Qantas points earning credit card that costs them $200 and is enrolled in the program.

Person C looking at Person B: 'I pay exactly the same and get QFF points. Show me the extra cost to me of gaining those QFF points when I'm doing and paying exactly what I would have done anyway.'

No, again its not the same thing; just like your posts #29 and #36. Enrolling in a card points earning program and earning in that program will have the costs built in. We know NAB buys the points off Qantas and NAB builds that cost into their fee structure.

I'm now suspecting you don't understand the Accor/Qantas tie-up - different programs and you earn on both when you pay for a supply on the other program. Enough with the spurious comparative examples.

You have not been able to say what the cost to me of the QFF points are in this case (using Matt's definition). Can't win 'em all.

 

[Happy Dude]

Citi Payall are absolutely free points, provided the payalls were set up during the 0% fee promotion. I have it on my FFFL Citi Premier card. I earn citi rewards points which I convert to airline points. No cost, but I have invested time and effort to set it up and set up the repayments. So, free IMO.

 

[GrahamBRI]

if you convert 2,000 Flybuys points into 1,000 Velocity points, you're giving up a $10 shopping discount. If you pay for something with a credit card, you still have to buy the product (and sometimes pay a card surcharge).

The $10 discount is free, you can choose to take it by signing up to flybuys and taking the discount (so long as you do nothing else to gain it)...... the Velocity points similarly are free..... if either are taken by choice without additional cost, they are free..... the only cost is to those that, for whatever reason, don't take the discount or points!!!

I acknowledge the most lucrative points have a cost (like credit cards and their associated fees), but definitely there are some on offer for free......

my most favourite free points were Ansett's points for signing up frequent flyer members (at no cost). I think that was 3K or 5K a member and did I sign up a huge number of members......

 

[CaptainCurtis]

I just received 250 QFF points as a QBR flyer bonus from a recent work trip. Didn't cost me a cent.

I received 43 QFF points from Uber on a ride to the airport. Also didn't cost me a cent.

 

[Forg]

I just received 250 QFF points as a QBR flyer bonus from a recent work trip. Didn't cost me a cent.

I received 43 QFF points from Uber on a ride to the airport. Also didn't cost me a cent.

Well … it both did & didn’t.

On the one hand, you shared in the extra cost to Uber along with everyone else who took a ride, whether or not they got QFF points. If nobody got QFF points, everyone including you would’ve paid less.

But on the other hand, if we assume reality - if you’d taken the same ride without getting those QFF points, it’d have cost you the same as when you got those points, ‘cos that QF deal is in-place & it’s link to pricing is already set.

 

[SydneySwan]

Citi Payall are absolutely free points, provided the payalls were set up during the 0% fee promotion. I have it on my FFFL Citi Premier card. I earn citi rewards points which I convert to airline points. No cost, but I have invested time and effort to set it up and set up the repayments. So, free IMO.

But there is an annual fee on the Citi card. So not free IMO!

 

[Highway23]

What about points earned by using the points prompter for online shopping?
Sure there’s an argument you’re paying in data, or that maybe you could pay less for an overnight bag in store at ALDI than online from Country Road… but if you’re going to buy that product anyway, what’s the extra cost really?

 

[frodo]

I would argue that no points are "free", however you as the customer may in some circumstances receive it for "free" (depending on how you define "free"). Often in those cases, the merchants (through CC fees) are the ones paying for your points.

Like for example, if you use a CC to purchase something without surcharge fees.
While you as the consumer did not get charged anything extra for something that you may already need, the transactions and fees that are baked in for the merchant is the fee. Now you could argue that in theory the merchant has already priced that into the goods/services they offer you hence why there's no surcharge but it would be an invisible cost.

Thus it ultimately comes down to how you define "free". But there is no such thing as a "free" point, just who paid for it.

I can't really agree with that definition. Assuming you ultimately pay the same total amount whether you use cash or credit card (i.e no credit card surcharge), then the points are 'free' for the end user in my opinion.

Yes, it is probably built into the total cost you are paying which has been passed onto the consumer by the business, but since you cannot reduce or influence the amount you would otherwise pay, I would say that you are getting the points for free. The merchant would pay a transaction fee to their bank regardless of whether there are rewards programs or not.

Even if we use the definition that there is an invisible cost, there is then the question of how much of the total transaction cost is passed onto the customer. Would the full cost be passed on, or would it be less, since a percentage of customers pay in cash or debit cards which would result in no or low transaction fees? Are customers that pay with cash effectively subsidising the points you receive?

 

[Happy Dude]

But there is an annual fee on the Citi card. So not free IMO!

FFFL = Fee Free For Life.

Comes with a Priority Pass good for 2x lounge access per year too.

 

[Phoenix-1]

Put it another way - you tell me what the additional cost is in earning the extra QFF when I use an Accor hotel, when I was going to anyway, and the cost is the same whether or not I have the accounts linked? How much more am I paying to get the QFF points in this case?

You give up the option of booking via OTAs and getting ~10% cashback through SB/CB. Invariably booking through Accor will be more expensive than an OTA.

 

[RooFlyer]

You give up the option of booking via OTAs and getting ~10% cashback through SB/CB. Invariably booking through Accor will be more expensive than an OTA.

We dealt with this up-thread. You are talking about opportunity cost, not cash cost which is Matt’s definition. You could stay with a friend and save even more - not relevant.

The point being that if you do choose to stay with Accor , for whatever reason such as locality or price, and your account is linked, the Qantas points come for no extra cost. The Accor program bears all the cost (so yes, you are paying for the Accor points).

 

[GrahamBRI]

The point being that if you do choose to stay with Accor , for whatever reason such as locality or price, and your account is linked, the Qantas points come for no extra cost. The Accor program bears all the cost (so yes, you are paying for the Accor points).

I like the way you present this argument….. so yes you are paying for the Accor points…….
….. however if someone else stays at the same place on the same rate and does not have a linked Qantas account, they are also paying for the points, that you will receive…… so does that mean you are in fact getting a percentage of “free” points from the others that pay for them but do not receive them.

 

[Phoenix-1]

The point being that if you do choose to stay with Accor , for whatever reason such as locality or price, and your account is linked, the Qantas points come for no extra cost. The Accor program bears all the cost (so yes, you are paying for the Accor points).

The choice should be reasonable though, shouldn't it? If someone chose a Qantas earning card with a much higher annual fee (with an accompanying higher earn rate) because they liked the design of the card, would it be reasonable to say they're earning Qantas points for free?

 

[Gremlin]

We dealt with this up-thread. You are talking about opportunity cost, not cash cost which is Matt’s definition.

The question @Mattg actually posed was "But is that a correct way of looking at it?" when he was presented with examples that reflected data cost and opportunity cost. If you're going to retreat only to Matt's definition, then the answer to Matt's question is trivial.

FWIW, I think there is a clear data cost to you in your example. You are sharing your data more widely than you otherwise would. Your data will be distributed to QFF and any of their authorised third parties in a way that otherwise wouldn't happen. You are being compensated for that with points. At a minimum, if a data breach occurs between Accor and Qantas, or elsewhere on that value chain, you are exposed in a way that someone who doesn't claim the QFF points is not. That exposure has an expected intrinsic cost, hopefully small but not easily quantifiable, which you are choosing to pay.

 

[CaptainCurtis]

At a minimum, if a data breach occurs between Accor and Qantas, or elsewhere on that value chain, you are exposed in a way that someone who doesn't claim the QFF points is not. That exposure has an expected intrinsic cost, hopefully small but not easily quantifiable, which you are choosing to pay.

How is that any different than booking through an OTA? Same risk of data breaches. There is no incremental risk.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Nothing in life is free; there are costs to everything. One needs to determine one's value proposition to decide on a course of action.

There are many informing theories on the subject.

 

[Sprucegoose]

under the definition of 'free' points proposed by Matt, these points (but not the Accor ones) are 'free' - there is no additional cost or effort or doing anything beyond what I was going to do anyway, because I needed a place to stay for the night.

Yes, well-argued RF. There was no cost as you didn't see any additional value in an alternative, and your initial decision suited your criteria. As there was no (additional) cost and the points didn't influence your decision-making criteria - the points were free

 

[RooFlyer]

so does that mean you are in fact getting a percentage of “free” points from the others that pay for them but do not receive them.

Maybe, but I don’t think it matters for the purposes of this thread. I believe I’m getting free points from Qantas and I don’t really care what others do or don’t do.

The choice should be reasonable though, shouldn't it? If someone chose a Qantas earning card with a much higher annual fee (with an accompanying higher earn rate) because they liked the design of the card, would it be reasonable to say they're earning Qantas points for free?

If you’re earning points on a card or for a hotel stay those points will have an inbuilt cost into the rates you pay. Actually I think there’s a case for saying credit card points can be free but I’m happy just to argue one single case to show re the third title that yes some points can be free.

What I’ve been talking about with Accor and Qantas is that if you stay with Accor you pay for the accor points on their program and in addition you get the Qantas points on a separate program for no additional cost or effort.

If you're going to retreat only to Matt's definition, then the answer to Matt's question is trivial.

Fair enough- Matt asked the question and personally I’m answering in the affirmative and I’ve always based my replies on that.

FWIW, I think there is a clear data cost to you in your example. You are sharing your data more widely than you otherwise would. Your data will be distributed to QFF and any of their authorised third parties in a way that otherwise wouldn't happen.

Again this is non-cash, which is not what I’ve been putting my arguments on but more specifically in this case, I’ve already shared my data with Qantas and Accor separately - I have to be a member of both schemes for them to join up. All they are telling each other is that I am also a member of the other program and sending points across.

 

[bPeteb]

Unless something costs more to me to buy to get points than it would without sure there is a cost. If the price is the same, then to me they are free. If I'm flying somewhere on a QF flight as a QF WP and the person beside me isn't a member of QFF, and we've paid exactly the same amount for the ticket, and I earn points but they don't, I look at those points as free.