Just saying. QFFP does not equate to loyalty or status.

[MEL_Traveller]

The fact that you can even apply for international upgrades as a no-status member is in of itself generous! Qantas also offers a pathway to higher tier membership i.e purchasing the Qantas Club which is significantly different to that of many other airlines. Confirmable international upgrades devalue premium cabins, speaking frankly I want the integrity of the F cabin and domestic J cabins left in tact unlike on US carriers which means only high status members who spend a fair portion of their life flying and those who are willing to pay for the privilege.

Life isn't fair, especially something that is so mundane as a Frequent Flyer program shouldn't be. Would you suggest that low status members be able to reserve upgrades in advance or have time request trump status? As a high tier member I think it is perfectly acceptable for my last minute upgrade to clear ahead of a bronze that has been requested for months, just as priority boarding, lounge access are all things that I have earned. It is all about choice, if a bronze member feels as if they are hard done by after taking two Jetstar flights and shopping at Woolworth's and not getting a free flight then I doubt they are much of a loss.

Qantas domestic has confirmable upgrades in advance, as well as last minute upgrades.

Other airlines also offer confirmed upgrades in advance, as well as last minute upgrades. Including top tier airlines that I don't think anyone would argue 'compromise' their top cabins because of the upgrades.

 

[kitkatff]

$5000/year

On international that just scrapes above Silver (couple of returns to europe, around 190 SC each using the middle fair (ie. no cheapest not PE)), so not that great outcome in any case - one entry to the QP and faster check in (which is nice, I admit). Even if using early bird fares and getting 3 returns, still at least 100 SC short of gold.

Someone mentioned the qantas club membership, I don't think it's that great - I took it when they waived the joining fee because I could spare the money (and ironically I'll be making gold for the 1st time through unplanned work trips, so I won't even need it until mid 2016 ...).
But on domestic it's not worth that much (how many pints can you drink in 30 minutes before your flight to make up the money ...), and on international you can buy lounge access for way cheaper than that, for ex $50-70 in Dubai, you'd need 10 of those to match the QP membership (and if you need 10 then you'll be gold anyway), more if you didn't get a discount on joining fee. I think you can also buy access in HK. Not to mention of course QF banning QP from the lounge in Dubai if not on QF flights, even if there is no actual QF code-share with EK for the next leg ...

Also honestly, the QF business amenities bag is rubbish ... looks like a pencil pouch for pre-schoolers ...

Disclaimer: fly mainly for work, got comped PS this year, never made gold so far, got a MEL-DXB upgrade to business on points, but was flying mid week on a half empty plane, so probably would have got it as NB.

Any business is in it for itself, not the customer - their main purpose is to extract money from us with the minimum amount of effort on their part. Doesn't matter if it's QF or QFF, same goals.

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Threadhack: Big BUT, now that VA has hived off 34% of VR QF FF might be the better option "in inveted commas". The other party takes hold end if this month (???)))...
It might be a tough or tougher road ahead even if no one wants to admit it at VA. And/for those if us who have one arm or hand or paw in each if the Australian FF programs.

 

[straitman]

Threadhack: Big BUT, now that VA has hived off 34% of VR QF FF might be the better option "in inveted commas". The other party takes hold end if this month (???)))...
It might be a tough or tougher road ahead even if no one wants to admit it at VA. And/for those if us who have one arm or hand or paw in each if the Australian FF programs.

AP,
Would you like to rewrite that please :?:

I have no idea what you are saying :!:

 

[Princess Fiona]

AP,
Would you like to rewrite that please :?:

I have no idea what you are saying :!:

I'll hazard a guess (just a guess mind you) :
The OP is saying that with the recent part sale of Velocity and perhaps uncertainty surrounding the effects that QFF looks on paper to be a better program to be part of.

 

[mannej]

Let's not forget that QP membership doesn't provide lounge access only. There are other benefits which can be worthwhile (a greater luggage allowance for one can come in handy)

 

[Alanslegal]

The fact that you can even apply for international upgrades as a no-status member is in of itself generous!

Qantas loves that no-status flyers can apply for international upgrades because some no-status flyers do buy the more expensive fares just so they can put their hands up for the upgrade lottery. More $$ for Qantas & a positive marketing point of view by Qantas saying everybody can upgrade*

*enter the upgrade lottery

Confirmable international upgrades devalue premium cabins, speaking frankly I want the integrity of the F cabin and domestic J cabins left in tact unlike on US carriers which means only high status members who spend a fair portion of their life flying and those who are willing to pay for the privilege.

Let's go one step further and ban points from being able to redeem F. I think you fly F regularly but give it some time and I bet that F cabins will disappear soon if nobody could use points to upgrade or redeem awards.

Life isn't fair, especially something that is so mundane as a Frequent Flyer program shouldn't be. Would you suggest that low status members be able to reserve upgrades in advance or have time request trump status? As a high tier member I think it is perfectly acceptable for my last minute upgrade to clear ahead of a bronze that has been requested for months, just as priority boarding, lounge access are all things that I have earned. It is all about choice, if a bronze member feels as if they are hard done by after taking two Jetstar flights and shopping at Woolworth's and not getting a free flight then I doubt they are much of a loss.

Qantas again loves the non-status member. They pay for more expensive fare buckets just so they can hope to upgrade. They will be hoping a very long time because elites, like you, will always trump the non-status flyer. Qantas does not tell the non-status flyer that they have very small chance of an upgrade. Anyone who has been a nothing-bronze get a points upgrade to/from LAX recently, can you put your hand up please? The non-status flyer probably flies JQ or whatever, spends at Woolworths or wherever, but Qantas still loves selling those points to Woolworths and credit card companies because it's easy money to them. End of day, it can be a big loss for Qantas. Hypothetically if they can generate $20 from each of the 7.5million or whatever Nothin' Bronzes per annum, that's an easy $150 million every year for doing nothing

 

[kitkatff]

I do feel the no-status flyers, those who take one trip O/S every year or every 2 years, they'll be using their CC for other programs (eg. westpac altitude and converting to myer vouchers or something a bit more tangible), if they really want value for money. Of course "value" all relative, but getting a few vouchers every month is probably more rewarding than accumulating points and hoping.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Let's go one step further and ban points from being able to redeem F. I think you fly F regularly but give it some time and I bet that F cabins will disappear soon if nobody could use points to upgrade or redeem awards.

F cabins are considered an important part of the marketing tool for any airline's FF program. Not only does an F cabin add prestige to an airline, but it gives the incentives for FFers to earn and burn points.

The upgrade lottery is inherently unfair, and there is no reason why a hybrid of confirmed/standby upgrades can't be in place. I don't personally know of anyone that would get satisfaction if they were told their upgrade was only confirmed by taking it away from someone else.

 

[Moopere]

F cabins are considered an important part of the marketing tool for any airline's FF program. Not only does an F cabin add prestige to an airline, but it gives the incentives for FFers to earn and burn points.

Yes, indeed. This is what John Borgetti calls 'the halo effect' in relation to the adding of a J product to VA a few years ago. I think he was asked whether or not he expected the new J to be independently financially viable and if I remember correctly he didn't asnwer that in a direct way, preferring to say that adding J to the product line had an overall positive effect. He was probably indirectly referring to the significant boost the (usually) profitable FF schemes have on revenue but there needs to be more incentive than simply buying a toaster a year through the schemes.

 

[medhead]

1) Which is why I contend the programme is more about revenue to QF than loyalty to QF

That's right. The program is about making revenue from loyalty. There is a clear connection. The primary purpose of the QFF program is loyalty, partially in order to make revenue. Business does things to make money, there is zero surprise in that fact. You've simply stated the obvious. This is why the premise of the OP is false; the frequent flyer program and loyalty need to be addressed separately? What they create a second loyalty division in the qantas group? False premise, that doesn't appear to actually understand the current setup.

The QFF program is about loyalty. The program already rewards frequent flying with Status Credits. Status credits are not tied to the frequent flyer earn rate, at all. In fact the OP is actually suggesting that more SC be given for higher frequent flyer levels. SC are an equal measure of how much a person flight purchase is worth to Qantas. Take enough flights, that is bring in enough revenue to the airline, and they will give you certain benefits. The 100th or 1000th individual flight is no more valuable to Qantas than the first, so why give more SC for the 100th or 1000th flight that for the first. People get rewarded with benefits for taking 100 flights. There is no apparent reason why they should get more SC for 101st flight. Certainly nothing that the OP has articulated.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

That's right. The program is about making revenue from loyalty. There is a clear connection. The primary purpose of the QFF program is loyalty, partially in order to make revenue. Business does things to make money, there is zero surprise in that fact. You've simply stated the obvious. This is why the premise of the OP is false; the frequent flyer program and loyalty need to be addressed separately? What they create a second loyalty division in the qantas group? False premise, that doesn't appear to actually understand the current setup.

The QFF program is about loyalty.

They are separate and account separately.

Think about this:
Qantas generates revenue from ticket sales (revenue)
Qantas pays QFF for points for FF members (expense)

QFF generates revenue from selling points to Qantas and the banks. This accounts for >90% of QFF revenue.
So while Qantas (the airline) is all about loyalty to flying - QFF (the program) is all about earning/burning points.
The only reason QFF likes status customers is that Qantas is buying points and sending them to your FF account.

It's about loyalty to the airline, but spend to the program.

In an ideal world - QFF would sell unlimited points at 2cents each to anyone who will buy them. This turns them into a wholesaler of award inventory for partner airlines. Other airlines hate this and that is why we are seeing staged award inventory being released by various airlines. In the case of United & Singapore - Singapore basically told UA to FK off and won't release any First class redemptions anymore. But that is where the money is!

Status is soo yesterday. It's all about the miles now.

 

[Supersonic Swinger]

QFF (the program) is all about earning/devaluing points.

Fixed it for you...

 

[medhead]

They are separate and account separately.

Think about this:
Qantas generates revenue from ticket sales (revenue)
Qantas pays QFF for points for FF members (expense)

QFF generates revenue from selling points to Qantas and the banks. This accounts for >90% of QFF revenue.
So while Qantas (the airline) is all about loyalty to flying - QFF (the program) is all about earning/burning points.
The only reason QFF likes status customers is that Qantas is buying points and sending them to your FF account.

It's about loyalty to the airline, but spend to the program.

In an ideal world - QFF would sell unlimited points at 2cents each to anyone who will buy them. This turns them into a wholesaler of award inventory for partner airlines. Other airlines hate this and that is why we are seeing staged award inventory being released by various airlines. In the case of United & Singapore - Singapore basically told UA to FK off and won't release any First class redemptions anymore. But that is where the money is!

Status is soo yesterday. It's all about the miles now.

You're missing the point. QFF is the loyalty part of the Qantas group. Loyalty is the primary function of that part of the group, that is to generate loyalty to the group and the airlines in the group. That QFF makes revenue does not change the fact that that is the part of the group that has responsibility for the loyalty function. As you point out QFF does bring in revenue, you will notice that I haven't limited my comment about the source of revenue (points in this case). QFF also provide the status credits for flying and QFF have also priced the cost of the SC/benefits to determine how many to hand out for taking a flight.

So as I have already stated the premise of the OP is false. Of course QFF makes money, that is the point of any business. Making money is certainly no reason to create a second loyalty program, when one already exists. Loyalty is already addressed by QFF both via SC and points. How they make money is not a reason or and argument for duplication.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

You're missing the point. QFF is the loyalty part of the Qantas group. Loyalty is the primary function of that part of the group, that is to generate loyalty to the group and the airlines in the group. That QFF makes revenue does not change the fact that that is the part of the group that has responsibility for the loyalty function. As you point out QFF does bring in revenue, you will notice that I haven't limited my comment about the source of that revenue. QFF also provide the status credits for flying and QFF have also priced the cost of the SC/benefits to determine how many to hand out for taking a flight.

So as I have already stated the premise of the OP is false. Of course QFF makes money, that is the point of any business. Making money is certainly no reason to create a second loyalty program, when it already exists. Loyalty is already addressed by QFF both via SC and points. How they make money is not a reason or and argument for duplication.

I see what you're trying to say but it's not QFFs job to create loyalty. It's their job to sell points and the airlines' job to cultivate loyal customers.
Keep in mind loyalty is subjective and is only what you think it's worth. It's like cigarette smoke... you think you see it and then it's gone. It's not real and you can't hold it.

In this respect, Qantas Frequent Flyer / Qantas Loyalty could be called Points Hub Limited. The name throws people off into thinking there is some kind of loyalty-magic play.
It's 100% a marketing business and the psychology behind how you interpret it is perceived as loyalty in your mind. Don't be trapped into thinking the word loyalty has any real meaning. It's a play on your mind!

Qantas has their own loyalty program called Chaimans Lounge. That is the the real loyalty program and is only for valued customers.

 

[bertair]

Although I accrue many thousands of QF FF points, I never seem to gain much in the way of SCs.
Not that I really care as whatever I have had, disappeared before I could get enough to get away from "Bronze".
So why do people covet them so much ?
Wouldn't it be worthwhile for members to give them a choice of either getting their SCs or more FF points ?
Then again as it is probably not in QF interests, they won't consider it.
After all most people I know think that QF only acts in the shareholders interests.(and Alan Joyce's)
All I ask for is that the times I fly QF, or use their partners services and products, that I get rewarded with points and can use those points for flights into the future.
I used to be a QF Club member, but found I did not use it all that much as I arrived on time to depart and as soon as I arrived, I was off to business and not hang around. The Club is too nice a place most of the time and it is tempting to waste time there & a trap for the busy business executive.
Now that I am retired, I still take holidays and fly around 8 times year domestically and internationally, but I am really not happy that it is sooooo hard to use my points on flights I want when I want.
In a perfect world, an airline like Qantas could offer seats that were still unsold 24 hours from take off to FF members in exchange for their points and $$$ if there was a shortfall.
As it is, too many flights leave the ground with empty seats and this is another reason why Qantas is facing financial woes.
Next time you fly, count the empty seats and think about what is missing in this debate.

 

[jessesd]

I would like to see SC offered for award flights, as QFF has received cash for these points, and therefor the award flights are all prepaid, sometimes years in advance.
Instead using points is seen as the less fortunate way of travelling. I feel like i am looked down upon, by some staff, when they check my ticket to find it is ONLY an award booking.

 

[BD1959]

I would like to see SC offered for award flights, as QFF has received cash for these points, and therefor the award flights are all prepaid, sometimes years in advance.
Instead using points is seen as the less fortunate way of travelling. I feel like i am looked down upon, by some staff, when they check my ticket to find it is ONLY an award booking.

The "taxes" are fast approaching the cash cost of an Award flight - especially LH awards. More Eaton why SCs should be "earned".

Regards,

BD

 

[mannej]

I would like to see SC offered for award flights, as QFF has received cash for these points, and therefor the award flights are all prepaid, sometimes years in advance.
Instead using points is seen as the less fortunate way of travelling. I feel like i am looked down upon, by some staff, when they check my ticket to find it is ONLY an award booking.

Years in advance? I didn't think you could book an award flight more than a year in advance

 

[BD1959]

Years in advance? I didn't think you could book an award flight more than a year in advance

That was the way I initially read the post, I think jessesd means the points are earned (so the revenue is recognized) years in advance.

Regards,

BD