LAX to SYD Award Flight Booked but Flying out of SFO, What to Do?

It doesn’t specifically say that but it does say you can claim up to $10,000 AUD in damages. Now I’m not an expert on fares, but I suspect most walk up one-way economy fares to Australia will be less than that amount.

It doesn't say you can claim $10,000 AUD. It says:

The carrier is liable for damage occasioned by delay in the carriage by air of passengers, baggage or cargo. Nevertheless, the carrier shall not be liable for damage occasioned by delay if it proves that it and its servants and agents took all measures that could reasonably be required to avoid the damage or that it was impossible for it or them to take such measures.

As you are claiming damages, you will have the onus on proving your damages. Just being a day late is not going to justify compensation, let alone hugely expensive fares. You are going to have to prove actual loss.

You will face the airline having the defence that they took all reasonable (or possible) measures - where reasonable will no doubt be measured against the expectation of what a "normal" loss for a delay would be. For instance, if you had to be back to settle a contract, and by being 4 hours late, forfeited a $100,000 deposit, it is most unlikely that it would be considered reasonable for an airline to spend many thousands on a last minute walk up fare on a competitor to get you home only an hour late, rather than placing you on their own flight the next day - as the normal expectation of loss for a day late would be limited to an expectation of a day's pay.

It is also not $10,000 AUD but 4,150 XDR, which is currently about $8,332 - and the full flex Y unrestricted one-way fare filed by Qantas for LAX-SYD is currently $9,647 AUD (plus taxes and charges).
 
It's not my view of the Montreal convention. The law is the law and is no different from something like the EU261 or Canada's APPR other than the fact that it applies globally across most countries. The fact of the matter is countries around the world have recognized for many decades now that the ability for carriers to transport passengers across international borders is a privelege and not a right, and part of that privelege is accepting liability when they mess up. As an aside, the United States actually forces airlines flying internationally there to waive liability limits resulting from personal injury. Whether one is successful in small claims (should it ever come to that) remains to be seen, but this would also apply with EU261 and APPR if the airline simply ignores their requirements under those regulations too.

-RooFlyer88
It’s very different when it comes to enforcing your rights.

If you bought a faulty dishwasher in australia, you have rights under ordinary contract law. You could sue the retailer or manufacturer, spend months or years going through court, have legal fees pile up. And still lose.

Aussie Consumer law bypasses all that.

It’s the same with Montreal. You could spend months or years in court, have huge legal fees. And lose.

Eu261 and DOT and canadian consumer laws bypass all of that.

So yes, Montreal is there. You could make a claim. The airline could argue all sorts of defences. What are you going to do then?

Eu261 is very consumer friendly. You don’t get the same legal issues and risks from enforcing under 261, or aussie consumer law, etc.
 
As you are claiming damages, you will have the onus on proving your damages. Just being a day late is not going to justify compensation, let alone hugely expensive fares. You are going to have to prove actual loss.
First, the Montreal Convention is silent when it comes to compensation. If you want to talk about entitlements like compensation which do not considered whether passengers have in fact experienced any damages but instead peanlize delays as a moral harm you need to look at passenger rights bills like EU261 or APPR. What the convention provides for is reimbursement for damages encountered. This could include meals, hotels and new flights. But it also could include lost wages if you can show that you missed work and as a consequence of that lost wages. For some items like lost wages I will concede that there is a higher bar to climb in proving damages. However, for things like meals and hotels the simple fact that you were delayed and encountered those expenses should be adaquate. For flights, it would really depend on what option the airlines gave you. For instance, suppose Alaska booked you on a flight departing 3 days later. Most people would argue that this is an unreasonable arrangement as it results in you accumulating additional damages (i.e. more lost work, more hotel stays, more meals, etc.).
You will face the airline having the defence that they took all reasonable (or possible) measures - where reasonable will no doubt be measured against the expectation of what a "normal" loss for a delay would be. For instance, if you had to be back to settle a contract, and by being 4 hours late, forfeited a $100,000 deposit, it is most unlikely that it would be considered reasonable for an airline to spend many thousands on a last minute walk up fare on a competitor to get you home only an hour late, rather than placing you on their own flight the next day - as the normal expectation of loss for a day late would be limited to an expectation of a day's pay.
Those are arguments they can use in court. But at the end of the day, it is the courts that will decide on the balance of probabilities whether the airline is liable. And small claims courts have found that airlines can be held liable in many instances. There are many instances where putting you on the next available flight is a reasonable measure. A classic example that comes to mind is you have a cruise booked and your flight gets delayed and you are rebooked on a new flight departing after the cruise leaves port. Now I will concede a lot of the case will hinge on how much time you have set aside to make the connecting cruise. But if you are like most people and set aside let's say 8 hours or a day, then yes the airline should as a general principle get you to your destination when possible. In those instances, you could argue that you had a choice as a traveller, either book the next available flight or suffer the significant lost from arriving late. Indeed courts around the world have recognized that airlines can be on the hook for the cost of cruises missed or nights in hotels booked at a destination you were unable to use due to the delay. Indeed, there is a simple principle under the law that we should seek to minimize our damages. It is a logical principle since if we don't minimize our damages, it may be the airlines who are on the hook for even more damages in reimbursement. So yes, paying $3000 to buy a walk up fare can actually be a better outcome for both the airline and the consumer than having to pay out the convention maximum of $10,000+ AUD.
It is also not $10,000 AUD but 4,150 XDR, which is currently about $8,332 - and the full flex Y unrestricted one-way fare filed by Qantas for LAX-SYD is currently $9,647 AUD (plus taxes and charges).
Incorrect. The liability amounts under the convention are reviewed regularly by ICAO and updated to adjust for inflation. In particular, on the 28th of December, 2019, those amounts increased to 5,346 SDR which works out to $10,768.68 AUD


Eu261 and DOT and canadian consumer laws bypass all of that.

So yes, Montreal is there. You could make a claim. The airline could argue all sorts of defences. What are you going to do then?

Eu261 is very consumer friendly. You don’t get the same legal issues and risks from enforcing under 261, or aussie consumer law, etc.
In what way are these consumer laws different from the Montreal Convention? At the end of the day, the airline can still deny all of these claims, and you are left with having to go to court. Now maybe you could argue that the burden of proof is lower. But you still have to file paperwork and potentially spend considerable time in court to seek a remedy under the law. After all, these laws are silent when it comes to things like enforcement. For instance, whilst you can complain to the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) when an airline denies your compensation and they can certainly investigate and even rule that the airline must pay you, it takes several years for them to do so, with them having a backlog of tens of thousands of complaints they must adjudicate. In addition, even if you are successful with the regulator, all the airline needs to do is appeal the order in court to have the whole thing set aside.

As for Australian Consumer law, it's the same thing there. Yes you do in theory have rights as a consumer, but it doesn't stop companies from misrepresenting what those rights are and even denying you those benefits. Maybe you could go to the ACCC and maybe if they are inclined to do so they'll even investigate. But we are talking about a long drawn out process where even their findings may hold no water (since again companies can just appeal the matter to court).
 
Nobody puts the One (and only) World Platinum World Expert in The Montreal Convention (and queue theory) in the corner!

Reality in court can differ to expectations based on reading of a convention.

Hopefully this is not something that needs testing imo.
 
One further update on the rebooking. I noticed the Alaska Air segment didn’t have a corresponding PNR and when I tried using the Qantas PNR it did not load up the res in the Alaska website. It would seem like Alaska and Qantas use different res systems. Ended up calling Qantas who gave me the PNR for Alaska and was able to access that booking, select seats, etc.

Otherwise, everything seems as it should be for the reservation, having received my econfirmation and everything else. I suppose only time will tell if everything ends up smoothly but I must admit this turned out better than I had hoped, thus far.

-RooFlyer88
 
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Realistically, if it’s a single ticket, you have to be rebooked if you misconnect. If there’s a seat available, why wouldn’t you get it? If it’s the middle of the summer holidays and it’s three days until the next seat, well yes then you might have to wait.
 
One further update on the rebooking. I noticed the Alaska Air segment didn’t have a corresponding PNR and when I tried using the Qantas PNR it did not load up the res in the Alaska website. It would seem like Alaska and Qantas use different res systems.
Yes, I’ve noticed that last year. QF rebooked us (revenue) on a LAX-SFO tag from QF11 after they delayed the restart of SYD-SFO. I could see the AS booking in QF MMB but couldn’t do anything with it nor did that PNR work on the AS website.

I don’t remember how I got the AS PNR, either used the eTicket number but more likely ba.com (I don’t recall calling QF to get it - unless the HBA agent told me over the phone when he rebooked us).

Does BA.com show your AS PNR? (Hint click through to seat selection - both PNRs should/might be there).
 
… I noticed the Alaska Air segment didn’t have a corresponding PNR and when I tried using the Qantas PNR it did not load up the res in the Alaska website. It would seem like Alaska and Qantas use different res systems. Ended up calling Qantas who gave me the PNR for Alaska and was able to access that booking, select seats, etc.
If you get to fly AA, then it’s a different PNR to QF, as well.
 
Yes, I’ve noticed that last year. QF rebooked us (revenue) on a LAX-SFO tag from QF11 after they delayed the restart of SYD-SFO. I could see the AS booking in QF MMB but couldn’t do anything with it nor did that PNR work on the AS website.
Correct that was my experience.
I don’t remember how I got the AS PNR, either used the eTicket number but more likely ba.com (I don’t recall calling QF to get it - unless the HBA agent told me over the phone when he rebooked us).
If you attempt to use a non-Alaskan eTicket number or PNR you are greeted with an error telling you to enter an Alaskan PNR or eTicket number:
Screenshot 2024-05-03 at 14.26.41.png
Does BA.com show your AS PNR? (Hint click through to seat selection - both PNRs should/might be there).
No it doesn't. Indeed, entering the PNR on the BA site results in the select seat option being greyed out.

-RooFlyer88
 
Correct that was my experience.

If you attempt to use a non-Alaskan eTicket number or PNR you are greeted with an error telling you to enter an Alaskan PNR or eTicket number:
View attachment 383320

No it doesn't. Indeed, entering the PNR on the BA site results in the select seat option being greyed out.
Must have been this…
I don’t recall calling QF to get it - unless the HBA agent told me over the phone when he rebooked us
I might have even asked if there was a seperate PNR (knowing how AA works (or doesn’t) when booked as QF!
 

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