Lets talk about the 787 windows

[Dutton]

And the good little sheeple go along with it.

Exactly. Same on overnight BA JFK to LHR - the cabin temp was so hot I couldn't sleep!

 

[Cognac]

I think the key here is that more and more airlines outside of status, charge for a seat selection and the seat selection is advertised and sold as a choice of Window seat / Middle seat / Aisle seat

So the ( possibly legal ) argument is if I have selected a window seat for an extra cost to look out of, but then don't have access to that window because its locked shut then what did I pay for?

Would I not have argument to ask for a refund for the extra amount?

If the crew can decide weather the window is to be closed for the entire flight then surely an airline cant charge extra for that seat option?

The only option with a real tangible benefit to pre pay for would be an aisle in that case.

Are they charging extra for the window seat? Or charging extra for the benefit of selecting your seat?

This whole argument is getting a bit ridiculous. As jb747 stated, if you don't like the locked window policy on commercial 787 flights you are more than welcome to fly private. Mr H is also welcome to continue being That Person on the flights they are on, and trolling through this particular thread. Or if not trolling, just blindly continuing to assert that they are right and that no one else has any reason ever to want some shuteye during a day flight.

 

[Mr H]

Mr H is also welcome to continue being That Person on the flights they are on, and trolling through this particular thread. Or if not trolling, just blindly continuing to assert that they are right and that no one else has any reason ever to want some shuteye during a day flight.

I am puzzled that people try to sleep on daytime flights, but if they want to, they can use the provided eye masks. That way their personal choice does not get imposed on everyone.

The fact that I have a different opinion to some does not make me a troll. I would have hoped my track record on AFF would have placed me above such a snitty accusation.

 

[MelbFlyer]

I am puzzled that people try to sleep on daytime flights, but if they want to, they can use the provided eye masks. That way their personal choice does not get imposed on everyone.

Some people may have not been able to get a good night's rest prior to the flight, some may have just got off another flight, some may have air sickness etc. Many reasons for wanting to sleep.

The fact that I have a different opinion to some does not make me a troll. I would have hoped my track record on AFF would have placed me above such a snitty accusation.

There's been some people on here who've nitpicked posts of mine too / tried to put words into my mouth (posts). It's a forum, you can't stop it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I am puzzled that people try to sleep on daytime flights, but if they want to, they can use the provided eye masks. That way their personal choice does not get imposed on everyone.

The fact that I have a different opinion to some does not make me a troll. I would have hoped my track record on AFF would have placed me above such a snitty accusation.

Ok, sleep aside. How do I keep the glare off my video screen?

 

[Daver6]

Ok, sleep aside. How do I keep the glare off my video screen?

Sit in a centre seat.

Is your office and anywhere else you look at a screen pitch black?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sit in a centre seat.

Is your office and anywhere else you look at a screen pitch black?

Centre seat doesn't fix it unfortunately.

Indeed, in the office we have blinds to prevent direct sunlight and glare. Which is part of our OHS measures.

 

[Daver6]

Centre seat doesn't fix it unfortunately.

Indeed, in the office we have blinds to prevent direct sunlight and glare. Which is part of our OHS measures.

You're telling me in a centre seat you're getting direct sunlight onto your inflight video monitor?

 

[Quickstatus]

How do I keep the glare off my video screen

Get some polaroid sheets and tape it to whatever causing glare.

 

[RichardMEL]

Goodness me this is all getting a bit precious isn't it?

You can't really equate office environments to aircraft cabins in my (ahem) view. If someone's watching a screen (either provided IFE or a personal device eg tablet) they're doing it for entertainment's sake. Office monitors tend to have some form of anti-glare function, and yes, the environment can be modified somewhat to suit (plus if someone's trying to rest/sleep in the office, well that's a whole other situation ). I would suggest if folks are in the office environment watching video entertainment, movies etc (for their job) they probably have a more dedicated environment/area for that. Although I may have had cricket games streaming while I did other work, but that wasn't being watched all the time either.

Yes, a lot of people also work on aircraft on their laptops/devices too, and probably prefer less glare if posible (again, why if I notice someone using a screen next to me and I'm in the window I will put the blind down out of courtesy. I normally listen to audio in flight myself).

As pointed out above, people often are on flights in all kinds of different circumstances. You can't assume that everyone getting on that daytime MEL-SIN has started in the right place or even have the same needs for rest either.

I fully get the argument about >12 hour flights being kept in darkness when at least some portions should be in daylight (but then there are other times where you can fly 17 hours through a very long night eg DFW-SYD/MEL).

I see a cabin environment as a shared space with other people. I am a window seat guy, but I try to be reasonable about it and aware of the entire cabin. Yeah, that one person letting dawn sun stream into a cabin can really be annoying for other pax so I wouldn't do it. Others feel otherwise and that's their right. However, I've also been that guy in the US who does open the shadw during taxi/takeoff/landing because I want to, and I also think it's a safety thing, but generally if the rest of the cabin is dark, I'll shut it otherwise out of respect. If a few others have their windows open then I might go half/half and again be aware of who is around me.

It's a bit like flying to LAX arriving early morning then taking a transcon - a daytime flight. If the transpacific flight was not good, then yeah I am someone who wants to nap. Yes, sure, eye mask etc (unless I didn't bring one with me) or I just suck it up. That's on me and I wouldn't complain, but I could also definitely understand if people were unhappy if I wanted to keep the window shade open for hours while others are resting, working or watching a device.

 

[dajop]

The whole light vs dark cabin debate can be interesting.

On one of my several MEL-SIN flights last year, a 4pm departure, I was in an exit row and pulled out my laptop to start working. Once the cabin lights had been dimmed I put my overhead light on, easier to see the keyboard etc. But the couple next to me requested that I turn the light off as they wanted to sleep. It was still only 6pm. I try to be considerate of others but sometimes it has boundaries

As for the daylight argument, a flight a couple of weeks ago to LHR, leaving SIN at around 1pm, the cabin shades were kept down for the entire flight - but - the cabin wasn't in darkness at all. Occasionally window pax would briefly open and peak out the windows, for long periods cabin lights were left on, and when they weren't lots of people who had personal lights on. Didn't disrupt anyone's viewing of screens as glare was minimised, yet cabin was light enough to stimulate those - which actually was most of the cabin - wanting to stay awake. And those who'd joined from MEL, who'd had a very early start with a 7am departure just fell asleep anyway (But I noticed PE and J cabins were dark for most of the flight).

 

[RooFlyer]

This whole argument is getting a bit ridiculous. As jb747 stated, if you don't like the locked window policy on commercial 787 flights you are more than welcome to fly private.

You don't think the second sentence there resembles the first?
___________

Lets wind back to the 'old fashioned' window blinds that have served pretty well on I think everything up to the B787 - yep, all the B747s, A380s etc. Gosh, how did we survive?

(Talking J here) Cabin crew in my recollection usually went around asking for blinds to be closed during expected sleeping times (long haul). Most people complied; just about everyone complied after a second request. Me too, although I slid the blind up to have an outside peek, occasionally. If there was an open blind, and I was trying to sleep, I wore a sleep mask. Crew would lean over and close blinds of someone who was already asleep, if they could reach.

But come breakfast before landing, for instance, nearly everyone opened their blinds to see what was out there AND to assist getting into the circadian rhythm of their destination. Unlike my recent trip where (as I mentioned), the B787 blinds were kept locked dark even when just about everyone was having breakfast. Ridiculous.

Treat the adults like adults and leave those on a window to control the window, as has always been the convention, subject to requests - or directives - from the crew.

 

[Eastwick20]

Are they charging extra for the window seat? Or charging extra for the benefit of selecting your seat?

This whole argument is getting a bit ridiculous. As jb747 stated, if you don't like the locked window policy on commercial 787 flights you are more than welcome to fly private. Mr H is also welcome to continue being That Person on the flights they are on, and trolling through this particular thread. Or if not trolling, just blindly continuing to assert that they are right and that no one else has any reason ever to want some shuteye during a day flight.

I guess for me personally I choose/pay extra for a window seat to look out of said window
and that was my point, if its going to be closed the entire flight I'd never choose it or pay extra for it. I'd just go pay for an aisle and get the benefits of an aisle instead.

I absolutely don't argue against the comfort of other passengers, and we should be able to ' read the room" when travelling at what is happening around us but also on a consumer level If an airline decides that blinds will be closed during any flight night, or day then that's fine. I just want to know that is the airlines policy before I spend extra money on something called a window seat that in reality turns out isn't.

In this thread its obvious that problem really is no consistency, it's down to the crew on the day and how they are feeling, so what does the customer do at time of purchase and pre paying a seat selection?

For me a good example is 09A and 09F on the QF Boeing 737 when you select it alerts you to the fact that the seat it is a "window seat without a window " and you decide to take it or select another seat which will suit you better.

 

[RichardMEL]

Treat the adults like adults and leave those on a window to control the window, as has always been the convention, subject to requests - or directives - from the crew.

In other words, use common sense and consideration towards others in a shared metal tube. Most people do. Some do not. That's how society be.

 

[lindseyh]

I've enjoyed my time with the windows. On one flight from SYD-SFA, the crew kept the windows dark over the Pacific as we flew into the next morning light while keeping the whole cabin dark for people to continue sleeping well into the day. This never happens on other planes with manual windows as someone always has a window open when I feel like the plane should be dark to sleep.

 

[Cognac]

You don't think the second sentence there resembles the first?

This is my point. Mr H made the same comment about flyers who want to sleep during the day earlier in the thread. It's a ridiculous solution to something that is really just a them problem. Just as there are realistic alternatives for those who want some shuteye during the day (wearing an eye mask being the main one), there are also realistic alternatives for those who want to be able to use the window shades without the risk of them being locked down electronically by the crew (don't fly that airline, or pick a flight with a different aircraft type). Any argument made about the sleepers can also be made about the voyeurs.

Lets wind back to the 'old fashioned' window blinds that have served pretty well on I think everything up to the B787 - yep, all the B747s, A380s etc. Gosh, how did we survive?

(Talking J here) Cabin crew in my recollection usually went around asking for blinds to be closed during expected sleeping times (long haul). Most people complied; just about everyone complied after a second request. Me too, although I slid the blind up to have an outside peek, occasionally. If there was an open blind, and I was trying to sleep, I wore a sleep mask. Crew would lean over and close blinds of someone who was already asleep, if they could reach.

But come breakfast before landing, for instance, nearly everyone opened their blinds to see what was out there AND to assist getting into the circadian rhythm of their destination. Unlike my recent trip where (as I mentioned), the B787 blinds were kept locked dark even when just about everyone was having breakfast. Ridiculous.

Treat the adults like adults and leave those on a window to control the window, as has always been the convention, subject to requests - or directives - from the crew.

Look, in general I agree. I love looking out the window if I happen to be there. But I'm not gonna spit my dummy out of the pram if I can't have that. I also realise that it is the new reality with the newer planes. And for me, personally, not speaking for anyone else, the flight is only a single component of a trip whether it's for work or for pleasure. I can just as easily pass the time reading a book, listening to podcasts, or watching movies, as I can sleeping or gazing out a window. It's not a make-or-break option for me on a flight, and I suspect this is also the case for the majority of flyers (no, I don't have proof, that's just pure speculation on my part and a massive assumption based on the fact that airlines are continuing to do this despite the odd disgruntled passenger here and there).

I absolutely understand there are different preferences. What our esteemed colleague seems to be missing is that while the previous way of doing things happened to cater to their preferences, their preferences/wishes for a flight are not necessarily the most important ones when it comes to considering the situation. And if the window shades issue is a big enough concern factor for them then they have alternative solutions to "the company, cabin crew, and everyone in this cabin should change their ways to suit my whims". Denouncing everyone else's preferences/individual needs as some sort of moral wrong because it impacts them is incredibly selfish and is either blissful ignorance about other people, or simple trolling.

 

[Cognac]

I am puzzled that people try to sleep on daytime flights, but if they want to, they can use the provided eye masks. That way their personal choice does not get imposed on everyone.

The fact that I have a different opinion to some does not make me a troll. I would have hoped my track record on AFF would have placed me above such a snitty accusation.

Reasons for sleeping could be many and varied, from changes in time zone to simply having a bad night the night before, or even not being good flyers and wanting to simply wake up at the other end.

But why is your personal choice to have the window open more important than someone else's personal choice to sleep? Like it or not, opening a window shade does impact the light levels for the whole cabin (either for good or for bad). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and you are absolutely entitled to yours. Having your opinion doesn't make you are troll, true. I even gave another option in my comment: that you were being sincere but basically inconsiderate of others/lacking understanding about others' situations on any given flight. Which you've confirmed in your response here. Cool, you're not a troll. That doesn't change the situation that there is more than just you on the flight.

In general I agree that it's a net-negative to have fully locked window shades. Let adults be adults, ask politely if the do need to be opened/closed (although it sounds like you refused even when this course of action was taken), it worked perfectly well with physical window shades for the vast majority of the time. But it's also the new reality. If it's that much of an issue then your solution is likely going to be choosing routes/airlines that either don't use aircraft with that capability, or don't use that functionality.

 

[dajop]

You actually can’t

I certainly have been able to see out. Maybe it wasn't locked fully darkened, or an older model where things weren't quite full blackout.

It actually makes a lot of sense to allow passengers some flexibility on 787 - it's not a binary situation of full darkness for full brightness. The (Closed - 1) setting allows for some visuals outside whilst maintaining a very dark cabin, and most passengers have the common sense to not put it on full brightness.

Does technology allow crew to completely darken the windows initially and then unlock so individual passengers can adjust a little to see out somewhat without bathing the cabin in bright light?

This very sounds like we have the technology and the solution to be a win-win rather than the situation where it is either completely dark or insanely bright.

 

[justinbrett]

There's two different debates going on here simultaneously.

First - whether the cabin should be made dark during daytime flights and/or whether the 787 dimming is sufficient vs manual shades for sleeping in daylight.

Second - with the crew having made the decision to make the cabin dark, whether individual pax should be allowed to overrule this to suit their own preferences, and therefore lighting up the entire cabin zone.

I can see many valid arguments for & against for the first debate, but I really don't understand how someone could argue for the second.

 

[dajop]

Second - with the crew having made the decision to make the cabin dark, whether individual pax should be allowed to overrule this to suit their own preferences, and therefore lighting up the entire cabin zone.

But the point is, unlike older technology (window shades) that IME one or two passengers adjusting the setting of the 787 windows by one or two notches hardly has an impact on the overall cabin brightness, no more than (and perhaps even less than), someone turning on an individual reading lamp. Most people seem to have some common sense about them not to put the setting onto full brightness. They just want to see some of scenery of the outback, the Himalayas, the Alps, Iran or wherever the plane happens to passing over. This is course different to the even smaller number who do want full brightness on daytime flights.

TBH, I think the sleeping argument is a straw man's argument. The real reason is to avoid glare on the monitors. Most who want to sleep either can - because they are so tired, or use eyeshades/earplugs and/or both. Or they can't unless they are so dog tired that they could sleep standing up on a train (I'm in the latter category, I can't sleep on planes as a general rule, and if I can, it doesn't matter whether it's dark or light ..)