Loyalty is a one way affair - goodbye QFF

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks for the reply. Yes will look into that. Turn around flight was over an hour late leaving Singapore for Ho Chi Minh, so Jetstar new it would be late going back. Asked them why they did not sms or call me and was told that’s not there job they don’t have the people to do that. Yes things go wrong, no one want so to be on a dodgy plane but just keep the customer informed. I could have flown with VA to Singapore and made my connection earlier. Be honest and keep customers informed as in today’s electronic society It is not that difficult.

This link contains a pretty good summary of your potential rights under Montreal. As Singapore is a party state I think you might be covered (but you'd need to check). Extraordinary circumstances are carved out as expected (same as EU261), but the biggie here is that airlines can escape liability if they can show they took all reasonable measures to avoid the disruption. Which is not necessarily a high bar. Montreal Convention - ClaimCompass

 

[Paulw]

JQ et al are members of the QF group only when it suits QF (when taking your money).

Did JQ/3K/QF offer accommodation in SIN?

I would never trust JQ/3K for business travel (or even mildly important personal travel). I have had 3K lie directly to my face on previous occasions.

This booking would have been on SQ all the way if I was booking it. Could have been cheaper overall as well.

Also, the IATA code for Ho Chi Minh City is SGN.

Hi
Yes to there credit they offered accommodation but lied about Taxi Fare. They would have put me up till my new flight Wednesday night. Actually I saved them money by finding my own way home.

Yes over $4,500 AUD for Mel -SGN-Mel all in economy except last leg premium on SQ ....ouch.
On the bright side......
Still have a QF SIN to MEL up my sleeve and qantas has my money....
Maybe I should send them an extra dollar and they could at least afford to reply to my customer complaint

 

[Paulw]

This link contains a pretty good summary of your potential rights under Montreal. As Singapore is a party state I think you might be covered (but you'd need to check). Extraordinary circumstances are carved out as expected (same as EU261), but the biggie here is that airlines can escape liability if they can show they took all reasonable measures to avoid the disruption. Which is not necessarily a high bar. Montreal Convention - ClaimCompass

Much appreciated

 

[dajop]

I do wonder if, given that QF38 was full, that QF36 was full, in fact overbooked, and this is what you are dealing with (although no-one would ever admit it). If overbooked, the first place they would look to offload passengers are those that they can legally do so, i.e. those on connecting flights that are late and won't meet MCTs. This is very common in the US, but not aware that much of QF doing it. Just speculation, but not the first, nor the last time you will see speculation on AFF

 

[AIRwin]

Turn around flight was over an hour late leaving Singapore for Ho Chi Minh, so Jetstar new it would be late going back. Asked them why they did not sms or call me and was told that’s not there job they don’t have the people to do that.

That's why I think it's worthwhile for me to always try to track the arrival of an inbound aircraft where possible so I know in advance if any delays will affect my outbound flight...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The other complicating factor is that even if you had advance notice and booked your own flight to SIN, the first sector may have recorded as a 'no show' and cancelled the rest of your itinerary anyway.

 

[travelislife]

I do wonder if, given that QF38 was full, that QF36 was full, in fact overbooked, and this is what you are dealing with (although no-one would ever admit it). If overbooked, the first place they would look to offload passengers are those that they can legally do so, i.e. those on connecting flights that are late and won't meet MCTs. This is very common in the US, but not aware that much of QF doing it. Just speculation, but not the first, nor the last time you will see speculation on AFF

This sounds very plausible. Sounds like all flights around that period were booked up full if the cheapest available seat was PE on SQ. And a whole 24 hours later (what is there, 7-8 SIN-MEL flights a day with QF, SQ and EK?). So QF would have been looking for the easiest offloads.

The QF/JQ marriage has always been to suit them, never the consumer. Have been burnt too many times, once on that exact itinerary of yours!

 

[Austman]

Yes to there credit they offered accommodation but lied about Taxi Fare. They would have put me up till my new flight Wednesday night. Actually I saved them money by finding my own way home.

It sounds to me to be a standard offer.

For years now I’ve noted that it’s the delaying airline that’s always held responsible for missed connections on a single itinerary.

It doesn’t seem to matter who issued the ticket or what the flight number was.

So Jetstar would be responsible in this situation.

When Jetstar was late the MCT for SIN was probably exceeded and so the connecting flight had to be cancelled.

Yes, of course one can whinge that Jetstar is actually Qantas but technically Jetstar had the responsibility to re-organise the flights.

 

[Quickstatus]

That is very bad.

The ACCC has banned similar practices in other industries.
For example. If you buy a Samsung TV from Bing Lee and the TV goes kaput within warranty, it is Bing Lee who should give you a replace or refund and they are not allowed to fob you off to Samsung.

It is entirely not unreasonable that QF and JQ colluded to do a dirty on you. QF likely had an overbooked flight, saw that JQ was running a tad late, and both thought easier to cancel you and fix an overbooked situation.

 

[dajop]

Yes, of course one can whinge that Jetstar is actually Qantas but technically Jetstar had the responsibility to re-organise the flights.

Yes it does, but you'd think that given that:
1) The flight OP was rebooked was on QF
2) It was on QF ticket stock
3) Original flights were on QF
4) The OP was travelling on a flexible ticket

that there would be something that QF could do! Obviously not.

 

[Blinky]

That is very bad.

The ACCC has banned similar practices in other industries.
For example. If you buy a Samsung TV from Bing Lee and the TV goes kaput within warranty, it is Bing Lee who should give you a replace or refund and they are not allowed to fob you off to Samsung.

It is entirely not unreasonable that QF and JQ colluded to do a dirty on you. QF likely had an overbooked flight, saw that JQ was running a tad late, and both thought easier to cancel you and fix an overbooked situation.

This is exactly my thought.

I know Virgin is far from perfect, but I’m glad I’m not loyal to Qantas after reading this and other similar stories.

And welcome PaulW. Hang around the forum.

 

[Isochronous]

Very dodgy, especially in the circumstances you've bought a QF coded ticket and so your contract of carriage is with Qantas, not Jetstar. How Qantas sub-contracts the carriage under their codeshares is of no concern to you because your direct contractual relationship remains with Qantas.

Definitely post this on social media and get the ACA involved.

 

[dajop]

Very dodgy, especially in the circumstances you've bought a QF coded ticket and so your contract of carriage is with Qantas, not Jetstar. How Qantas sub-contracts the carriage under their codeshares is of no concern to you because your direct contractual relationship remains with Qantas.

The conditions of carrriage are worded very well in unplain English on this matter:

2.1 Application of Conditions of Carriage

Except as provided in 2.4 (Overriding Law), 2.5 (Reading Down) and 2.8 (Charter Operations), these Conditions of Carriage apply to travel on our flights or flight segments, where 'Qantas' or our Airline Designator Code 'QF' is shown as the Carrier on your Ticket, and in any case where we have a legal liability to you in relation to your flight.

Codeshare	means a flight where the Airline Designator Code in the flight number is not the Airline Designator Code of the Carrier operating the aircraft

Qantas, we, us, our, ourselves	means Qantas Airways Limited (ABN 16 009 661 901) and Qantas' regional airlines operating in Australia under the QantasLink brand and trans Tasman flights (or such other flights from time to time) operated by Jetconnect Limited, unless otherwise specified. These Conditions of Carriage do not apply to Jetstar services.

 

[Isochronous]

2. When These Conditions Of Carriage Apply
2.1 Application of Conditions of Carriage
Except as provided in 2.4 (Overriding Law), 2.5 (Reading Down) and 2.8 (Charter Operations), these Conditions of Carriage apply to travel on our flights or flight segments, where 'Qantas' or our Airline Designator Code 'QF' is shown as the Carrier on your Ticket, and in any case where we have a legal liability to you in relation to your flight.

...

3.4 Codeshares
We have arrangements with other Carriers known as 'Codeshares'. This means that even if you have made a reservation with us and hold a Ticket for a Qantas flight (i.e. a flight with a QF Airline Designator Code), you may travel on another Carrier's aircraft.
If such arrangements apply to your flight, we will advise you of the Carrier operating the aircraft at the time you make a reservation. The conditions of carriage of the Carrier whose flight number appears on your Ticket will apply to your Codeshare flight.
Unless we advise you otherwise, where a QF Codeshare flight departs from an airport in the United States, the tarmac delay contingency plan of the operating Carrier will apply to your flight.

If the OP was booked on a codeshare then his ticket is QF coded and 2.1 says the conditions apply, as does 3.4. Would be interested to know what conditions of carriage are referred to when the e-ticket confirmation is sent out - I would be surprised if it weren't this version we are both looking at.

 

[Melburnian1]

...I go with the cheapest fare or the most convenient schedule. ..

Very good advice, although not good for the owners of websites like this. My main qualification is to add 'preferably not on LCCs' at the end of the second sentence.'

Generally I avoid Qantas as it's overpriced for what it delivers. Asian carriers are heaps better for international flights. Even QF's FF scheme has exorbitant charges for redemption. Very poor value yet millions of Australians who don't know better are obsessed with QF.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Very poor value yet millions of Australians who don't know better are obsessed with QF.

But probably good value for low value redemptions (which the majority of the 10 million members be eligible for), and with a generous (non)expiry policy it is likely the most suitable program.

 

[G B]

Three days?
Why could they not have put you on a Sydney flight via QF & JQ to Melbourne from there.
Seems they didn't try very hard or at all.
One reason we avoid coughstar after a poor experience in Sydney many years ago followed a few weeks later by an outstanding effort by Virgin.
Experiences on Qantas so far have been pretty good by contrast with Jetstar.

 

[ronone69]

Please let me state the facts and you will understand my current feeling towards Qantas:

Ticket Fully Flexible purchased from Qantas. MEL to HCM to MEL (all via Singapore)

Return Leg 28th April QF 5158 Ho Chi Minh to Singapore. Checked in for flight in Ho Chi Minh and received boarding pass for this flight and also the next leg Singapore to Melbourne QF36

20 minutes before original boarding time Jetstar Operated QF 5158 was notified of delay due to inward flight being late, new departure time given.
Thought I have boarding pass and no luggage still time to make QF36.
(Had I know this was to be a problem I could have jumped on a Vietnam Airlines flight to Singapore to make QF36)

Arrived Singapore and go to gate, still boarding, still passengers behind me in the queue, no problem. Scan boarding pass and get told that my ticket has been cancelled. Escorted back out to corridor and told go see Jetstar. (That's a Strange thing to hear I know i purchased Qantas tickets and Qantas have my money)

Went to transfer lounge, see Qantas staff and they tell me as Jetstar is late it’s a Jetstar problem and Jetstar have issued a new ticket for Wednesday May 1 (arriving for work and meetings Thursday morning over 3 full days late)

Asked Qantas desk staff to try to help to get me on QF38 later flight same night but they said it was already overbooked.

Tried to get some help at Qantas lounge and after not being able to be put on this later flight was told to go back to transfer lounge. Qantas staff at transfer lounge help me by calling Jetstar and handing me the phone as I was a Jetstar problem not a Qantas problem. Jetstar confirm that this is the best they can do: Wednesday night arriving Melbourne Thursday. Asked them to look at any routes as I had to be back and this was not acceptable. Their words “they are a low cost carrier and do not have the option of putting me with other airlines or other routes and this is the best they can do, take it or leave it”. (Yet Qantas tickets, Qantas payments, Qantas FF)

Qantas not willing to help, Jetstar doing what Jetstar do, I am left stuck in Singapore till Thursday after making my flight on time, just to be turned away at the gate. But the worst part was the follow up lack of support provided by Qantas. Once back in Australia complained to Qantas and they left a message on my phone that i missed their call and they would call back in half an hour, they did not...

Needing to be back I join Kris Flyer and get the only ticket I can with Singapore Airlines for the following night as this night is done. They only have one seat left on Melbourne flight and I need to be back already missing and rescheduling appointments, unfortunately costly as Premium Economy ticket, I have no choice but to buy it. $2,115.90 SGD out of pocket (and no pre-flight drink, sorry being petty now I guess)

How would you feel in the same circumstances ? Not that it should make any difference but I am just about to qualify as Platinum One....

Don't fly Jetstar. Problem solved

 

[watashi]

I had the exact same problem on a late Jetstar from KUL to SIN (QF Codeshare).
Missed my connection SIN to MEL. Delayed 1 day.
QF response over the phone "This is Jetstar's fault, they will make the arrangements".
...so a small party of us waited and waited while Jetstar grumpily organised taxi vouchers and a hotel.

Since then I have switched to SQ. About to go Gold.

 

[Economy_Gold]

The conditions of carrriage are worded very well in unplain English on this matter:

As outlined earlier in the thread, the power imbalance between consumers and companies that can dictate terms on the consumers has been addressed by the ACCC in other industries, but unfortunately not nearly enough in the airline industry. Having a EU 261/2004-style compensation scheme in Australia would also help a lot to "motivate" airlines to look after their passengers better.

I think it is absolutely unreasonable to expect consumers to read and understand conditions of carriage of airlines and I personally have had legal exchanges with airlines that forced them to do things (paid compensation to me etc) that were against their conditions of carriage. Usually, having consumer organisations such as Fair Trade NSW behind you helps in those cases.

In this specific case, I would suggest to send a letter to the local newspaper outlining Qantas behaviour and the costs involved and the public shaming of this miserable behaviour will hopefully help to resolve this case and avoid it in future.
The basic line is: If you make enough fuss to damage the public reputation of a company like Qantas, they will look after you and therefore you should use all avenues available irrespective of unfair conditions of carriage.