Malaysian Airlines MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

[UP4014]

The secret draft is probably the only way they can diplomatically point that finger. Not sure why, its bleating obvious who is to blame, and despite this, there will be no repercussions. So not sure why it has to be kept secret.

It's about no offending the said countries. Let them check and make sure there are no surprises.

Matt

 

[Danger]

The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet has announced a national memorial service will take place in the Great Hall of Parliament House at 11am on Friday 17 July. The public is welcome to attend.

Why the memorial? No disrepect to the relatives of those who perished in MH17, but why do we feel necessary to remember those who lost their lives in big events, and not those who do in ordinary events? I remember a few weeks after MH 17 three people died in Vic after a BP trailer came loose from a truck. No national day of mourning, no flags at half mast, no memorials for those poor people (and there are countless others). Is it mainly a grief coping mechanism? I am struggling why, when accidental death takes many victims every year, we single out some but not others for special treatment.

Agree, one can only think "media opportunity" for this. Yes, people are tragically killed every day with little comment.

Matt

Valid points, in my opinion. I don't know the reason but I will enquire.

From what I can gather it seems it was a 'captain's pick'.

 

[JohnK]

This caught my eye on a golf course in Brisbane a couple of weeks ago. Very sad.

 

[opusman]

despite this, there will be no repercussions

How can you say this?! I'm sure there is a good shirt-fronting in the offing!

 

[Flying mermaid]

Why the memorial? No disrepect to the relatives of those who perished in MH17, but why do we feel necessary to remember those who lost their lives in big events, and not those who do in ordinary events? I remember a few weeks after MH 17 three people died in Vic after a BP trailer came loose from a truck. No national day of mourning, no flags at half mast, no memorials for those poor people (and there are countless others). Is it mainly a grief coping mechanism? I am struggling why, when accidental death takes many victims every year, we single out some but not others for special treatment.

Numbers will aways make a difference - of course all lives should be valued and all deaths mourned, but when there are a large number from a single event, it will always have a greater impact. E.g. Port Arthur.

i will be attending the memorial service tomorrow with Mr FM and my friend's daughters will be coming up from Melbourne for it.

Two Sydney Morning Herald journalists (Kate Geraghty and Paul Mcgeough) were covering the story in the Ukraine last year. Just before they had to leave they decided to harvest seeds from the sunflowers growing onsite. They have worked with AQIS for the last year and the seeds have now been distributed to friends and relatives. I intend planting the seeds and harvesting each year in my friend's memory. Something positive out of so much sadness - a wonderful thing for Paul and Kate to do.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Why the memorial? No disrepect to the relatives of those who perished in MH17, but why do we feel necessary to remember those who lost their lives in big events, and not those who do in ordinary events? I remember a few weeks after MH 17 three people died in Vic after a BP trailer came loose from a truck. No national day of mourning, no flags at half mast, no memorials for those poor people (and there are countless others). Is it mainly a grief coping mechanism? I am struggling why, when accidental death takes many victims every year, we single out some but not others for special treatment.

Having gone to the ceremony today I think I have a much better appreciation of why it is being recognised at a national level. Apart from an opportunity for grieving it also recognised the huge input from consular, Defence Forces, Australian Federal Police and Forensic specialists. Many of these spent a large amount of time in a war zone and at risk, in order to retrieve remains and belongings and return some dignity to those people who died. So yes all deaths are a tragedy, but not all result in a national effort of this scale.

 

[Danger]

Numbers will aways make a difference - of course all lives should be valued and all deaths mourned, but when there are a large number from a single event, it will always have a greater impact. E.g. Port Arthur.

i will be attending the memorial service tomorrow with Mr FM and my friend's daughters will be coming up from Melbourne for it.

Two Sydney Morning Herald journalists (Kate Geraghty and Paul Mcgeough) were covering the story in the Ukraine last year. Just before they had to leave they decided to harvest seeds from the sunflowers growing onsite. They have worked with AQIS for the last year and the seeds have now been distributed to friends and relatives. I intend planting the seeds and harvesting each year in my friend's memory. Something positive out of so much sadness - a wonderful thing for Paul and Kate to do.

I was curious as to what the significance of the seeds were. Very nice.

Having gone to the ceremony today I think I have a much better appreciation of why it is being recognised at a national level. Apart from an opportunity for grieving it also recognised the huge input from consular, Defence Forces, Australian Federal Police and Forensic specialists. Many of these spent a large amount of time in a war zone and at risk, in order to retrieve remains and belongings and return some dignity to those people who died. So yes all deaths are a tragedy, but not all result in a national effort of this scale.

Very interesting. Sounds very fitting. As dark as it was perhaps in some respect the aftermath was one of Australia's finest hours. We're fortunate we have some highly talented people to do the work they did.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

From the 'ask the pilot' thread:

Thanks JB.

What prompted me to ask were all the accusations and finger pointing which were flying in the "Readers Comments" sections following the article on that video.

And as we know, most of us non pilots know very little about this stuff, the media less so, and "eye witnesses" even less when it comes to things aviation. Still people MUST have their opinions aired for all and sundry to see, I s'pose.

The issue of negligence will be determined by a court. As distasteful as the concept may be, and notwithstanding that it is against every principle (including international law) to target a civilian airliner, mistakes happen, and it is a legitimate question to ask why the airline was flying where it was. A court will decide whether there is any substance to that question. That other airlines may (or may not) have been flying over the same area is not necessarily a defense... unfortunately as MH is the one that suffered the loss, the spotlight is on them.

This article provides soe good discussion around the various issues: MH17: Malaysia Airlines crash puts spotlight on rules governing passenger planes in war zones - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

MH's commerical director, Mr Dunleavy, has left the airline according to Crikey Plane Talking: MH17 narrative under pressure as world waits for MH370 news | Plane Talking

The CPT article also revisits the issue of MH's choice to fly over Ukraine that day, including reliance on assurances from Ukraine that the flight-path was safe, even though they didn't actually control the territory over which planes were flying.

 

[drron]

Fragments of a BUK missile found embedded in wreckage of MH17.
Evidence proving that flight MH-17 was taken down by a BUK missile | RTL Nieuws

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Fragments of a BUK missile found embedded in wreckage of MH17.
Evidence proving that flight MH-17 was taken down by a BUK missile | RTL Nieuws

From reading the article it sounds like a journalist took part(s) of the wreckage (and/or missile) and conducted their own investigation? Didn't hand these parts over to the official investigation team?

I'm a little bit surprised by that.

The ABC has a less sensationalist version of the discussion around potential missile parts... saying investigators have not yet confirmed anything: Fragments from MH17 site may be from Russian-made Buk missile, Dutch prosecutors say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[drron]

This report is by the reporters newspaper who had an investigation which they say confirms the pieces as from a BUK.They have only handed over the pieces recently.
I agree with you this is unusual and possibly even criminal.

 

[whatmeworry]

Sometimes it take journalists to highlight the illegal behaviour of some governments.

 

[RAM]

This report is by the reporters newspaper who had an investigation which they say confirms the pieces as from a BUK.They have only handed over the pieces recently.
I agree with you this is unusual and possibly even criminal.

Or perhaps not quite so criminal - if the reporter was able to get to the site during the period that the official investigators could not (months long remember) then the reporter may have retrieved what could, in all likelihood, have been cleansed before the official access began once more.

The glass could be half full!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Or perhaps not quite so criminal - if the reporter was able to get to the site during the period that the official investigators could not (months long remember) then the reporter may have retrieved what could, in all likelihood, have been cleansed before the official access began once more.

The glass could be half full!

And if that was the case, the newspaper could have handed over the evidence immediately? Instead of months later?

It's an interesting dilemma. Do you hold on to pieces of evidence in case there is a cover up at the highest levels?

 

[whatmeworry]

Russian news outlets reporting they have evidence of CIA involvement. Most Western outlets decry the evidence laughable.

[video=youtube;4BhJifVhqFU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BhJifVhqFU[/video]

MH17: Dastardly CIA 'plot' to shoot down plane 'revealed' in Russia

 

[samh004]

Russian news outlets reporting they have evidence of CIA involvement. Most Western outlets decry the evidence laughable.

[video=youtube;4BhJifVhqFU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BhJifVhqFU[/video]

MH17: Dastardly CIA 'plot' to shoot down plane 'revealed' in Russia

The problem with that is they keep changing their story. Keep changing who to blame. While the rest of the world hasn't changed theories, it's pretty much a given what is going on in Eastern Ukraine.

 

[amaroo]

Standard socialist tactic....

 

[drron]

Especially as Russian troops keep getting caught in Ukraine-
Caught red-handed: the Russian Major fighting in Ukraine | euronews, world news

 

[marki]

Things really have just got worse there and the Russians are never to be trusted I speak from Experience too being born in the East gives perspective on matters such as this.