MH 777 missing - MH370 media statement

[Deleted member 29185]

very possible.

In a way, a passport is an anachronism - ...

Passports based on stolen identities were an item of indifference for an Israeli hit squad some years back. I agree that the whole passport system may be an antiquated yet expensive method of border control which is peppered with holes. Surely there are better solutions out there???? Or are there?

OT, did anything ever come out of the Mossads inappropriate use of forged passports?

 

[Pushka]

I think if this was an act of terrorism then the terrorists would need to tell the world that to accomplish their aim. Otherwise people will assume pilot error or mechanical malfunction. There's no traction for them in that.

 

[Jack_OC]

Passports based on stolen identities were an item of indifference for an Israeli hit squad some years back. I agree that the whole passport system may be an antiquated yet expensive method of border control which is peppered with holes. Surely there are better solutions out there???? Or are there?

OT, did anything ever come out of the Mossads inappropriate use of forged passports?

There's a big difference between passports based on stolen identities and stolen passports - for the simple reason that the stolen passports were cancelled and listed on a database that is apparently easily searchable.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think if this was an act of terrorism then the terrorists would need to tell the world that to accomplish their aim. Otherwise people will assume pilot error or mechanical malfunction. There's no traction for them in that.

I was thinking that too... although I guess if it was brought down intentionally those doing it would know investigators would figure that out eventually. And the angst this is causing in the meantime would be beneficial to their cause, not hinder it.

 

[Mal]

I think if this was an act of terrorism then the terrorists would need to tell the world that to accomplish their aim. Otherwise people will assume pilot error or mechanical malfunction. There's no traction for them in that.

That is assuming they want to own up and/or there isn't a media block on the information.

I don't know what to think about this crash and I try to not add to the hysteria. The stolen pasports are a valid angle, but they could have been used by fugitives, spies or people wanting a better life. It doesnt trigger 'terrorists' in my mind.

My general thought is that the search teams involved are not up to the task, and I welcome the addition of Singapore and Australian support.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

There's a big difference between passports based on stolen identities and stolen passports - for the simple reason that the stolen passports were cancelled and listed on a database that is apparently easily searchable.

I didn't suggest it was the same thing.....just that it goes to show that the passport system may have more problems than we are led to believe!

 

[Jack_OC]

I didn't suggest it was the same thing.....just that it goes to show that the passport system may have more problems than we are led to believe!

Right, but all I can say is that I didn't find it at all shocking to learn that a govt spy agency was capable of using fake passports (or passports in fake names) and getting away with it. I don't think it would ever be possible to have a system that is capable of preventing Mossad/CIA et al getting their people where they want to go. In contrast, I assumed that the existing system would generally prevent someone from travelling on a passport that had been reported stolen. As such, I am shocked to learn that may not be the case.

In terms of a solution - do they not just need to starting using the Interpol database that they already have access to? It seems the US and some other countries already do that, hence people reporting here that they have been subjected to extra scrutiny when entering the US after having a passport stolen. Maybe if anything good comes of this it will be that many other countries will now step up their game on passport screening.

 

[Pushka]

I think that losing someone and just waiting to find out what has happened must be excruciating pain. I don't know how the parents of children who are abducted and are never seen again actually cope. Or even live. This to me is the meaning of closure. Finding out what happened.

 

[markis10]

My general thought is that the search teams involved are not up to the task, and I welcome the addition of Singapore and Australian support.

Having a US P3 on station yesterday afternoon would have helped a lot, there are now three P3s available thanks to two being sent from Darwin so I expect anything to be found will soon be found. Having the incident happen where it did, basically smack bang on the boarder of the airspace does not help.

 

[markis10]

Vietnam reports spotting

#MH370 door and piece of tail at 8 47' 32"N 103 22'26"E, 207 km North of waypoint IGARI pic.twitter.com/FZVEL08u9O\

That location makes it a probable positive for belonging to MH370.

 

[RooFlyer]

markis10 (or anyone): In the "real world", would the search aircraft now looking there have to observe the niceties of the three national airspaces ie liaise and co-ordinate with the air space controllers of each country whose airspace they will enter? Would a particular search aircraft restrict itself to a particular countries' airspace because crisscrossing them is a hassle?

Or would you think, by now, there would be some "central" co-ordinated search effort and control of airspace in a circle around the main search area?

 

[Mal]

Maybe if anything good comes of this it will be that many other countries will now step up their game on passport screening.

Interpol has been warning about this issue for over two years....
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/01/19/interpol-chief-countries-not-using-databases/

Ron Noble, secretary-general of the police agency based in France, said out of the 1.1 billion travelers last year, ID documents of about 500 million people were not checked against Interpol's database, which is one of the world's most detailed.

"It will take a tragedy -- a specific kind of tragedy -- for behavior to change," Noble told The Associated Press after addressing a group of foreign correspondents in London.

 

[markis10]

markis10 (or anyone): In the "real world", would the search aircraft now looking there have to observe the niceties of the three national airspaces ie liaise and co-ordinate with the air space controllers of each country whose airspace they will enter? Would a particular search aircraft restrict itself to a particular countries' airspace because crisscrossing them is a hassle?

Or would you think, by now, there would be some "central" co-ordinated search effort and control of airspace in a circle around the main search area?

The search aircraft are more than likely outside of controlled airspace operating below FL250, there would be two RCCs (Rescue Coordination Centres ) active - one in Vietnam and one in Singapore (which is why I suspect we have sent two aircraft, one for each search area). I am guessing Singapore have set up grids in their area for searching and Vietnam has done the same.

 

[RooFlyer]

The search aircraft are more than likely outside of controlled airspace operating below FL250, there would be two RCCs (Rescue Coordination Centres ) active - one in Vietnam and one in Singapore (which is why I suspect we have sent two aircraft, one for each search area). I am guessing Singapore have set up grids in their area for searching and Vietnam has done the same.

So, say the US, for whatever reason, wanted to put a plane of theirs in the search area, they would 'report to' one of the 2 RCCs and co-ordinate their efforts with that RCC?

And these RCCs - are they established on an ad-hoc basis (and if so, why SIN and not KUL)? Or are they pre-arranged 'bases' covering certain geographic areas?

 

[Jack_OC]

Thanks for that Mal. Looks like an "I told you so" opportunity if ever there was one, although I'm sure he wasn't hoping his prediction would come true.

 

[markis10]

So, say the US, for whatever reason, wanted to put a plane of theirs in the search area, they would 'report to' one of the 2 RCCs and co-ordinate their efforts with that RCC?

And these RCCs - are they established on an ad-hoc basis (and if so, why SIN and not KUL)? Or are they pre-arranged 'bases' covering certain geographic areas?

There will be a temporary restricted area declared in the search areas with ownership reverting back to the respective RCCs, should an aircraft wish to join it will come under the control of the SAR MC (SAR Master) who may delegate coord and control to an aircraft, if he has a P3 that is what I would do as they are very capable aircraft in that respect. I have on a number of occasions be able to do that, Glenbrook (RAAF HQ) would tell me where the P3 would pop up enroute to the SAR area on entry to the SAR area I would assign coord responsibility for all flying assets to the P3. If need be a P3 can remain on-station for 12-16 hours flying 250ft above the ocean with two engines shut down.

The RCCs are permanent, why SIN, thats because they map back to the FIR (flight information region) they belong to, in this case its Singapore who control the airspace.

 

[Austman]

Interpol has been warning about this issue for over two years....
Interpol chief: Countries not using databases | Fox News

AFAIK there are no passport checks when departing some countries - eg USA, UK where only the check-in staff sight the passport/visa.

 

[Mal]

AFAIK there are no passport checks when departing some countries - eg USA, UK where only the check-in staff sight the passport/visa.

Yes and no. The passport information provided in the booking may be extensively used. Physical passport vs name on boarding pass not so much...

 

[prozac]

I think I read somewhere that both passports were listed with InterPol as stolen, but I don't know how that is useful after the rightful owner has obtained a replacement.

Interpol has stated that there was no check performed on their system for these passports. Does that mean the Malaysians had the this security system switched off?

 

[Sprucegoose]

AFAIK there are no passport checks when departing some countries - eg USA, UK where only the check-in staff sight the passport/visa.

Its the TSA in the USA