Natural wine? Anyone else a fan?

[georgehall]

The old faulty wines thread

The thing I enjoy about what they call 'natural wines' is the untouched element. Having worked in a couple of larger wineries as a helping hand at vintage time, the alterations that are made to the must are incredible, acid, tannins, etc etc. All to produce wine to a textbook. To me it ends up a bit boring, and to a script. I feel around that $30/bottle wine I would prefer something more expressive, rather than a wine maker mucking about with his chemistry set trying to make the next Grange.

While I do not exclusively drink 'nattys', I do find myself drinking more sustainable wines from more boutique winemakers, who seem to be being lumped in with that 'natural wine' crowd. Some may have a few faults, but a lot of the time they seem to be way more expressive of a region. They seem to play a lot more in the lighter styles too, which I tend to gravitate towards.

While I deplore the 'scene' of the hipster natural wine drinker using phrases like 'smashable juice' and 'total drinkability' etc I find it interesting that the opposite of that being 'wine snobs' is what deters so many younger people in to wine. Two ends of the spectrum I both hate (maybe I'm just a grump...)

That's all just rambling...I'll just sit here enjoying my Benoit Camus Beaujolais, not because hes a bio-dynamic, natural, organic blah blah producer, because it's bloody delicious.

 

[JohnM]

I do find myself drinking more sustainable wines

What is - by implication - 'unsustainable' about wines produced by winemakers who are not 'boutique'?

Most vines I've seen pulled out en masse has been a result of economic factors (eg. the MIS frenzy of late last century, and over-supply), not through productive-capacity collapse induced by of 'unsustainable' production methods.

I would suggest that most modern-managed vineyards are in ruder health than they have ever been, with less per-unit of production call on natural resources (eg. modern regulated-deficit irrigation systems and soil moisture monitoring eg. using tensiometers).

I hasten to add that my opening sentence was a serious question. It was not a criticism, explicit or implied, of small-scale wineries playing around with 'natural' or traditional methods.

There's always a place in any market for people to re-try old, or innovate new, ways of doing things. But, like organic agriculture, they do not have the production efficiencies or scale to provide sufficient supply to meet whole-market needs. Boutique indeed, but 'sustainability' (biological or economic) does not exclusively follow - despite the often jargon-laden and florid prose - allied with scientific looseness - that is often used in the marketing.

It always seems strange to me that the word 'unsustainable' (explicitly and implicitly in a biological context) is commonly used to preface modern agriculture and the word 'sustainable' (again the biological context is explicit and implicit) is commonly used to preface 'old ways' (for want of a better term). Yet modern agricultural systems are increasingly becoming more productive per unit area/units of input and ongoing, rather than collapsing.

Agricultural systems that do collapse are invariably highly extractive, making little or no attempt to be 'sustainable'. An extreme case in point is slash-and-burn agriculture where more and more land is cleared and natural habitat lost, rather than staying in place and managing key inputs - for sustainability.

 

[georgehall]

What is - by implication - 'unsustainable' about wines produced by winemakers who are not 'boutique'?

I didn't meant to say the two were connected, perhaps my explanation was not exactly well written. The sustainable and boutique description can be linked or exclusive. There are boutique producers who are completely unsustainable and vice versa.

I don't pretend to be an expert on sustainable viticulture, but I find it an interesting topic, not just in viticulture but all aspects of farming. I'm involved in a family farm that is looking to plant some vines over the next couple of years, and on a small producer scale I believe a farm that eliminates chemicals and employs some organic principals (not biodynamic, I'm not burying cow horns filled with manure under the second full moon of the winter solstice) has the capacity to produce a higher quality product. Sure the yields may be lower, and to scale up production you need to look at modern farming techniques to maximise efficiencies to lessen the impact per 'unit'. But that's kind of my point, I look to these smaller producers more and more, just toiling away in 5 hectares and producing a limited supply, so I guess that's where the 'boutique' and 'sustainable' can be linked.

In no way do I think either way is better (apart from as you mention the highly extractive farming), I just find the subject quite fascinating. I grew up on a pig farm with an old man dedicated to rare breed, organically farmed animals, it's an area im very interested in. So pairing that with my love of wine is just a rabbit hole I'm diving down recently

 

[thrillho]

Heavy discussion going on here...

You know what isn't heavy? This. Jean's son can make wine

 

[Sabot]

There are quite a few of natural wine in australia, heres the ones that i know of.

blind corner , brave new wine,gentle folk,jauma,Lucy Margaux, Ochota Barrels,ruggabellus.

highly recommend ochota barrels and ruggabellus .

I 2nd Ochota Barrels, I think it's a bit more expensive than previously now but that's no doubt due to the quality.
The Grenache is great, I've had the Fugazi, Impeccable Disorder Pinot Noir & A Sense of Compression Grenache.

 

[JohnM]

Peeps, don't get me wrong.

I love trying all sorts of wine - from all sorts of places . Thus far, my experiences of 'natural wines' (eg. orange, jura wines) have not done anything exciting for me - and, while wine is largely about what you like personally, it does have quality parameters. So it's tended to put me off further exploration down that wormhole.

It just bugs me when the word 'sustainable' goes (simply automatically or thoughtlessly in most cases IMHO) as an implicitly negative prefix or epithet to anything that is not modern, highly efficient agriculture that feeds the world that was supposed to starve by 1980 (The Population Bomb - Wikipedia, Club of Rome - Wikipedia).

Whether the 'green revolution' was a good or bad thing is, of course, debatable (eg. was the feedback loop positive or negative? - But I'd suggest think carefully about world-wide demographic trends before you answer that...). However, it did stave off the predicted starvation - and, notably, at the same time save a lot of natural habitat having to be destroyed to try to feed those masses from 'organic agriculture' with its ultra-low yields, poor quality product and crop and storage losses through pests and diseases.

Of course, the serious analogy is modern medicine. I wonder how many 'sustainable' wine producers when recommended immunisation or an antibiotic (read 'pesticide' - because that's all it is...) for their seriously ill child refuse it...

Meanwhile, I will make a more concerted effort to find a 'natural' wine that I find really enjoyable. That will be my excuse to re-visit a wine bar in PER that has a quite eclectic range of wine by the glass including orange wine and pet-nat. It's close to my bus route in case I get drawn in.

BTW - I'm thinking that many of the wines mentioned upthread fit more into the small-producer category than the 'heavy duty' offerings that I see as being what are generally described as 'natural wines' (ie. 'pet-nat', 'orange', fermented in 'eggs' and all that sort of thing).

Could it just be that the word 'natural' be the millennial version of 'sustainable', I wonder? After all 'sustainable' has been done to death since the 1970s. It's just soooo boomerish...

Bottom line: choose prefixes carefully...

 

[Sabot]

Peeps, don't get me wrong.

I love trying all sorts of wine - from all sorts of places . Thus far, my experiences of 'natural wines' (eg. orange, jura wines) have not done anything exciting for me - and, while wine is largely about what you like personally, it does have quality parameters. So it's tended to put me off further exploration down that wormhole.

It just bugs me when the word 'sustainable' goes (simply automatically or thoughtlessly in most cases IMHO) as an implicitly negative prefix or epithet to anything that is not modern, highly efficient agriculture that feeds the world that was supposed to starve by 1980 (The Population Bomb - Wikipedia, Club of Rome - Wikipedia).

Whether the 'green revolution' was a good or bad thing is, of course, debatable (eg. was the feedback loop positive or negative? - But I'd suggest think carefully about world-wide demographic trends before you answer that...). However, it did stave off the predicted starvation - and, notably, at the same time save a lot of natural habitat having to be destroyed to try to feed those masses from 'organic agriculture' with its ultra-low yields, poor quality product and crop and storage losses through pests and diseases.

Of course, the serious analogy is modern medicine. I wonder how many 'sustainable' wine producers when recommended immunisation or an antibiotic (read 'pesticide' - because that's all it is...) for their seriously ill child refuse it...

Meanwhile, I will make a more concerted effort to find a 'natural' wine that I find really enjoyable. That will be my excuse to re-visit a wine bar in PER that has a quite eclectic range of wine by the glass including orange wine and pet-nat. It's close to my bus route in case I get drawn in.

BTW - I'm thinking that many of the wines mentioned upthread fit more into the small-producer category than the 'heavy duty' offerings that I see as being what are generally described as 'natural wines' (ie. 'pet-nat', 'orange', fermented in 'eggs' and all that sort of thing).

Could it just be that the word 'natural' be the millennial version of 'sustainable', I wonder? After all 'sustainable' has been done to death since the 1970s. It's just soooo boomerish...

Bottom line: choose prefixes carefully...

Don't get me wrong, a lot of natural / biodynamic wine is garbage, however, some of it happily holds it's own against traditionally manufactured wines. (Like a few of those mentioned above)

I'm with you though, we were supposed to hit peak oil in 1970 remember?
Much of the sustainability & green focus is marketing to occupy those with no real problems in their life.

What's the wine bar? I'm in PER early next year and I'm always on the hunt for a good spot.

 

[juddles]

Just remember: the palatability is exponentially inversely proportional to the floridness of the language used to describe them...

I think I get this, but I also have to add a philosophical angle.

I enjoy wine, immensely. But I do not have either the skills nor the desire to describe my experiences in florid language. Same as when I eat a steak, or enjoy a soup. It makes me ponder a bit why wine is so fanatical in this regard: the need to decipher and describe??

Sort of raises alarm bells in my logical thinking.

I suspect that wine fulfills a secondary, a dalliance need, in our lives. And in this regard flowery descriptions bulk out and make pseudo-real the actual product.

Wine is a good thing. A few decades ago the market had everything - from stellar concoctions to mediocre slops. Almost more that the rest of the world, the aussie winemakers realized that the most important thing in wine making wasn't a thing about making something good, it was about avoiding the errors that made a wine bad. No wine without basic flaws is bad.

But now it appears we have come full-circle - people wanting to get back to "natural" processes. This brings back the errors, the simple and fundamental flaws. I understand the desire - I am actually a believer in seeking imperfect experiences as they are more real and fulfilling, in beverages and wine and food. But I think people should recognize what they are doing - they are rejoicing in freedom, in the ability to just enjoy what is not the standard norm. And good on you!

But in a rational scientific cold view, these natural wines are - faulty

 

[Daver6]

@JohnM is just grumpy because he doesn't appreciate wine from the Jura

 

[JohnM]

@JohnM is just grumpy because he doesn't appreciate wine from the Jura

Well next time bring something decent instead of unloading your rubbish on us.

 

[JohnM]

What's the wine bar? I'm in PER early next year and I'm always on the hunt for a good spot.

Shadow - 214 William St, Northbridge.

Food is good, too.

 

[afro]

I 2nd Ochota Barrels, I think it's a bit more expensive than previously now but that's no doubt due to the quality.
The Grenache is great, I've had the Fugazi, Impeccable Disorder Pinot Noir & A Sense of Compression Grenache.

they only made a few barrels per wine and some wine does cost more but there are hardly any price hike from the last 10 years, maybe in retail land.

 

[georgehall]

they only made a few barrels per wine and some wine does cost more but there are hardly any price hike from the last 10 years, maybe in retail land.

Having Mick Jagger say he's a fan helped with the sales a bit

 

[JohnM]

But now it appears we have come full-circle - people wanting to get back to "natural" processes. This brings back the errors, the simple and fundamental flaws. I understand the desire - I am actually a believer in seeking imperfect experiences as they are more real and fulfilling, in beverages and wine and food. But I think people should recognize what they are doing - they are rejoicing in freedom, in the ability to just enjoy what is not the standard norm. And good on you!

That's all fantastic, mate, and I'm all for it - so long as they don't preface everything with 'sustainable' as a cheap pejorative implication that other producers are somehow 'bad' for the world.

 

[afro]

Having Mick Jagger say he's a fan helped with the sales a bit

when was that?i know the owner/winemaker use to be in a rock group or something, i have no idea they are that popular.

 

[Sabot]

Shadow - 214 William St, Northbridge.

Food is good, too.

Thanks mate.

they only made a few barrels per wine and some wine does cost more but there are hardly any price hike from the last 10 years, maybe in retail land.

I must admit I don't exactly follow the prices like a hawk,just a general observation.

 

[georgehall]

when was that?i know the owner/winemaker use to be in a rock group or something, i have no idea they are that popular.

2014 I think

Mick Jagger shakes hips at Aussie winery

It's not everyday that Mick Jagger rocks up at your winery for an impromptu tour and ends up jamming on your piano.

www.thedrinksbusiness.com

 

[drron]

I think I get this, but I also have to add a philosophical angle.

I enjoy wine, immensely. But I do not have either the skills nor the desire to describe my experiences in florid language. Same as when I eat a steak, or enjoy a soup. It makes me ponder a bit why wine is so fanatical in this regard: the need to decipher and describe??

Juddles those skills are absolutely not necessary to enjoy wine.As one winemaker told me the wine you enjoy is the best wine for you.
In my younger days I had a very good memory-apart from names.That memory extended to my taste buds.A couple of sips and I was reasonably confident when drinking a wine what wine it was if I had had it before.But like you I could never describe what the taste was like.
I joined a wine club but still never learnt what people were describing.Though in my 6th year of membership I was permanently put in charge of selecting the wines for the blind tasting competitions as I had won that 3 years in a row.It had taken me 2 years to get used to the way of asking questions.

The other benefit was that I was pretty good selecting wines that would last and am enjoying the fruits of that ability now.
but I have not found a "natural wine" that I like and have given up the quest.

 

[georgehall]

Another issue is what actually defines a 'natural wine'? Organic principles in the vineyard? No additives in the wine making? No S02? A good explanation from rawwine is:

Natural Wine is farmed organically (biodynamically, using permaculture or the like) and made (or rather transformed) without adding or removing anything in the cellar. No additives or processing aids are used, and ‘intervention’ in the naturally occurring fermentation process is kept to a minimum. As such neither fining nor (tight) filtration are used. The result is a living wine – wholesome and full of naturally occurring microbiology

Now if that's the definition, a producer like Timo Mayer in the Yarra who makes one of Australias best Pinots (in my opinion) is a 'natural wine producer'.

Then you've got your big producers, Yangarra are organic and bio-dynamic, Cullen produce a wine they pick during a full lunar eclipse, Rippon are claiming organic status, Stefano Lubiana has been bio-dynamic since 2008... it's impossible to define who falls under the banner because it's quite hard to define what the rules are. I see it like Tip Top making a 'farmhouse blend' loaf of bread, sell the idea of the product rather than the product itself. Most I believe are using the buzz words to sell more wine. It's simple to be organic farm in Australia while still using a truckload of chemicals. It's similar in Burgundy at the moment, I was there last year and every small producer is claiming bio-dynamic principals (hard to do when your neighbor is covering the whole hill side in chemicals...lol)

I think some experience with the world of 'natural wine' is smaller producers who are not making good wine, but thrusting their product in to a market that is currently craving something 'boutique' or 'small batch' which gives it an air of exclusivity.

Now I'm tempted to crack open a Mayer Chardonnay in this Sydney heat...

 

[JohnM]

I once saw a map of the concentration of copper in the topsoil across Bordeaux.

There has been so much copper used there since the late 19th century as Bordeaux mix (copper sulfate + slaked lime) for fungus control that a geochemist analysing samples without knowing their origin would easily conclude that the sample collector had stumbled on the world's greatest copper-lode.

Copper sulfate approved for organic use in various jurisdictions can be more environmentally problematic than some synthetic fungicides not allowed in organic farming because copper is persistent and toxic above a certain concentration.

Sulfur is also an acceptable fungicide in organic farming. The stench of sulfur in the air in Burgundy in summer is something I will never forget.