Old Alliance Planes

[jkhastings]

Hey all. Like all of us, I fly a lot and am very particular about which airlines I fly for safety reasons. Most of my flights are booked through my work so I have no real control. In the last 18 months, more and more I’m walking onto a Qantas/Virgin booked flight to find a 30+ year old Fokker 100 with Alliance branding. Researching the Rego of the plane is eye watering how long they been in service. That, along with younger less experienced pilots, is not really acceptable. But what can you do? Is anyone else annoyed by this subcontracting?

 

[mannej]

Whilst I understand a trepidation based off age, why would you consider this alone as a determining factor of acceptability? If you look at QF domestic fleet as an example, there are certainly 737 and A330’s that are in the 20+ years age group.

Yes one of the QF Link flights had to divert in WA earlier this week, but by and large you don’t tend to hear much about issues with these flights. Out of interest, would you prefer stepping on a F100 that is relatively well looked after, even if it is 25-30 years old, or a newer 737 Max?

 

[jkhastings]

Whilst I understand a trepidation based off age, why would you consider this alone as a determining factor of acceptability? If you look at QF domestic fleet as an example, there are certainly 737 and A330’s that are in the 20+ years age group.

Yes one of the QF Link flights had to divert in WA earlier this week, but by and large you don’t tend to hear much about issues with these flights. Out of interest, would you prefer stepping on a F100 that is relatively well looked after, even if it is 25-30 years old, or a newer 737 Max?

I see your point, but the maintenance of Alliance aircraft is an unknown. The stress and strains on an airframe over 30 plus years of service must be immense. I suspect you aren’t a nervous flyer. I like experienced pilots with quality wings. There’s only a handful of international carriers that I will fly for this reason. But domestically, I just feel like I’m not getting what is paid for. If I fly Qantas, I would be expect Qantas equipment. It mostly happens on BNE-TSV and return flights.

 

[markis10]

I see your point, but the maintenance of Alliance aircraft is an unknown. The stress and strains on an airframe over 30 plus years of service must be immense…….I like experienced pilots with quality wings.

The maintenance of Alliance aircraft isn’t unknown, the airline is subject to the same regulatory requirements any other airline is in Australia. 30+ years of service is somewhat irrelevant, more important is the cycles and time flown and makers test their aircraft for airframe life as part of the design process, usually writing off a hull. In fact the F100s were subject to close analysis back in the 90s: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ysis_of_the_Fokker_100_wingfuselage_structure

You could argue that older aircraft at least have their chance to iron out issues with their designs such as those experienced by the Max and the Neo GTF issues.

As for experienced pilots, no guarantee you will have one airline employing more than another, if they are Australian airlines. The recent industrial issues at Qantas could well see experience going to Alliance as pilots get sick of the various EBA negotiation failures across short haul/AIPA and the subsidiaries such as Network and NJS not to mention Jetstar. One has to wonder how long before the divide and conquer attitude of management will last.

 

[Mattg]

If an airline in Australia was using planes that were not airworthy, or pilots who were not qualified, I would expect CASA to shut them down tomorrow.

 

[9171]

I see your point, but the maintenance of Alliance aircraft is an unknown. The stress and strains on an airframe over 30 plus years of service must be immense. I suspect you aren’t a nervous flyer. I like experienced pilots with quality wings. There’s only a handful of international carriers that I will fly for this reason. But domestically, I just feel like I’m not getting what is paid for. If I fly Qantas, I would be expect Qantas equipment. It mostly happens on BNE-TSV and return flights.

All other factors equal, I would choose to fly a 30 year-old airframe over a brand new one any day of the week.

Cheekily, can I suggest that 30 plus years of service would also provide stress and strains on a pilot?

Just of interest, how do you select your "handful of international carriers" that you will fly?

 

[nancypants]

Some of my best friends are flying for alliance and/or network aviation on the F100 fleet. They are all high hours, salt of the earth types with extensive hand flying experience and all but one has come from RFDS or careflight backgrounds. Meanwhile Qantas runs their own cadet scheme. I know which I’d prefer

I also like the f100 seats which are for want of a better word “plush”- nicely padded and with pretty decent legroom

Meanwhile, alliance has made until recently made the f100 their bread and butter and engaged extensively with previous operators of the type and Fokker (as exists) re the maintenance

That said, help is at hand for nervous f100 flyers; Fokker is pulling support for the frames in 2030, but it is anticipated they will be retired long before that

 

[jb747]

As for experienced pilots, no guarantee you will have one airline employing more than another, if they are Australian airlines. The recent industrial issues at Qantas could well see experience going to Alliance as pilots get sick of the various EBA negotiation failures across short haul/AIPA and the subsidiaries such as Network and NJS not to mention Jetstar. One has to wonder how long before the divide and conquer attitude of management will last.

That's an extremely unlikely flow. Jumping from the boiling water, into the fire.... Anyone leaving QF will move to someone like EK.

 

[nancypants]

That's an extremely unlikely flow. Jumping from the boiling water, into the fire.... Anyone leaving QF will move to someone like EK.

Agreed. My experience has been that people move to alliance specifically because of location (no Qantas base in Townsville is a prime example)

 

[Bajar]

I've found the service on Alliance to be on-par with VA and somewhat better than QF. The planes, I'm not fussed about although I was bemused to see a discarded and slightly used cigarette in one of the ashtrays recently.

If they fly around Australia, they need to be serviced according to Australian standards. We've seen CASA take swift action in the past when logs haven't been updated or reflected reality. For a significant player like Alliance, they will likely be under the microscope just as much as QF or VA.

 

[markis10]

That's an extremely unlikely flow. Jumping from the boiling water, into the fire.... Anyone leaving QF will move to someone like EK.

Not as unlikely as you think, they currently have 120 odd pilots who are ex QF group, including a mainline ex QF 787 sim instructor, and it’s no surprise there is a few ex Cx as well.

 

[jb747]

Not as unlikely as you think, they currently have 120 odd pilots who are ex QF group, including a mainline ex QF 787 sim instructor, and it’s no surprise there is a few ex Cx as well.

Ex QF group is not the same as ex QF mainline.

 

[markis10]

Ex QF group is not the same as ex QF mainline.

Agree, and my original post was not just referencing mainline

 

[jb747]

Agree, and my original post was not just referencing mainline

Yes, true, you said Qantas….but if you’re not actually employed by QF, then does it really count. Divide and conquer was the aim…and it worked in many ways.

Re the 787 sim instructor. Sim instructors are not company pilots. They’re generally contractors, who may, or may not, have actually flown the type they’re instructing on. Some were company pilots who had lost their medical. Senior check captains are also sim instructors, but they also instruct in the actual aircraft. I cannot imagine any of them leaving…as their grass is pretty green.

One of my pilots’s course compatriots is a QF Airbus 220 sim instructor. He was never a QF pilot, but has flown with Ansett, EK, and others, in 330 and 350. He’s never flown the 220, but I’m sure it has few tricks that he doesn’t know.

 

[eastwest101]

Hey all. Like all of us, I fly a lot and am very particular about which airlines I fly for safety reasons. Most of my flights are booked through my work so I have no real control. In the last 18 months, more and more I’m walking onto a Qantas/Virgin booked flight to find a 30+ year old Fokker 100 with Alliance branding. Researching the Rego of the plane is eye watering how long they been in service. That, along with younger less experienced pilots, is not really acceptable. But what can you do? Is anyone else annoyed by this subcontracting?

I would not be too concerned about the F100s, if you account for age of the aircraft and number of flying hours/service hstory or wanted to go for stats like fatalities per mile flown, the fairly new B737-Max family's brief time in the air has already killed more people than the 30 years history of Fokker F100s throughout the world, even if you normalized the data taking out non-aircraft pilot error/weather-related accidents.