Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[Limewood]

Where were you?

trying to swing

 

[Skyring]

It's only a freaking handful of boats that make it to Australian territorial waters, what's that, 1000 or so boat people. And yet over 40,000 people are here illegally per year (via breaching their visas) yet little or no attention is ever paid to them.

We have 1 200 Sri Lankan boat people arriving each month. Not to mention all the other irregular asylum seekers. Far more than a handful. They represent a huge problem in how we allocate our resources. They are expensive and we have no control over them.

Regardless of how one feels about asylum-seekers, the statistics on deaths in transit make for disturbing reading. Hundreds annually.

John Howard did two excellent things with the Pacific Solution. He increased our refugee intake and reduced the deaths in transit to zero. There were no boats arriving, the people smugglers were out of business and nobody had died in transit for years. All genuine refugees were out of detention and there was no problem.

All that has changed now.

As for visa-overstayers, they are not a problem. We know exactly who they are, because they went through the right channels to get here and we have their identity details. We know they haven't swiped their passport on the way out, so they are still here and eventually they will come to official notice and be deported. In the meantime, they are providing their own food and housing.

One cannot help but compare the promises last election made by Gillard to solve the problem Rudd had created. She was very big on putting the people-smugglers out of business. Promised a solution. Well, that hasn't worked out well, has it? Irregular boat arrivals are well up on anything we've ever seen before. Again, regardless of how one feels about asylum-seekers, this is ineptitude on a grand scale. Instead of the problem being fixed in a jiffy, it's gotten far worse.

This is not to say that I think Abbott can fix it. What I dislike is that a perfectly satisfactory solution was deliberately thrown away.

 

[vetrade]

What a load of rubbish. Fisher was quoted in yesterday's paper specifically saying that her political opponents did not use her problems to get to her. When Abbott was is full swing against Thomsen last year or whenever. The government mentioned that he was entitled to the presumption of innocence and noted that there was another member (as it turns out this was fisher) of the parliament that was enjoying precisely that presumption. So the whole basis of your post is false. Both case show us the difference between the government and the opposition. In particular they highlights Abbott's win at all cost mentality, his born to rule attitude and failure to accept the result.

WTF ?? Are you serious medhead? My comments were apolitical and your branding them as rubbish suggests you have little comprehension, or sympathy towards, people with mental health issues. They had absolutely nothing to do with presumption of innocence etc. I deliberately made no reference to Abbott, Gillard or even Craig Thompson because I was drawing attention only to the fact that shoplifting committed by depressed people was usually symptomatic of other issues that warrant psychological treatment rather than police charges - and that we should show some compassion to ANYONE suffering from mental illness. I was speaking from experience of having a high achieving and wealthy female member of my family, who shoplifted a $9.00 packet of biscuits as a result of depression brought about as a result of being molested by her father-in-law.

If evidence becomes available that Craig Thompson has mental problems then I'll defend his right to be cut some slack too.

It seems you were over-zealously looking for any excuse to mount a rant against Abbott, medhead. More fool you!

 

[drron]

Yes you were just answering a post and I think you may have mixed up Australian soil and Australian mainland. As we know Australian soil was excluded from the migration zone shortly after the Tampa incident.

I really don't think Malaysia or Nauru is a significant difference in policy. Aside from the question of meeting treaty obligations. In theory the Malaysia solution is preferable IMO. If you wish to call people queue jumpers you really need to have a defined queue. Nothing would stop the boats quicker than people knowing they are going straight back to the end of the queue. Hardly surprising Abbott would block it, much better to play politics than provide a solution.

BTW I agree that clinical staff are in a parallel universe. It's probably the last remaining industry where some operational staff are resistant to improving safety systems.

Careful I am working in Nuclear Medicine this week.

 

[Moody]

What I dislike is that a perfectly satisfactory solution was deliberately thrown away.

So your definition of "perfectly satisfactory" extends to measures that :-

- incite the plebs to fear boat refugees whilst ignoring the real "illegals" who arrive by plane and the majority of whom have their asylum claims rejected
- fail to meet our obligations under the treaty we signed
- have been demonstrated to traumatise genuine refugees (particularly children)
- included boat interception and towing duties which did involve fatalities and traumatised navy personnel


There is no perfect solution to this world-wide problem, which I suppose makes it perfect ammunition for the devioius to distract the small-minded from serious and humane debate

 

[Pukka]

If evidence becomes available that Craig Thompson has mental problems then I'll defend his right to be cut some slack too.

I'm not cutting him any slack the bloke is a grub and deserves everything he gets. On the shoplifting front didn't Winona Ryder get done for shoplifting ?? Surely she didn't need the money so depression might be the cause/excuse ??

 

[777]

If evidence becomes available that Craig Thompson has mental problems then I'll defend his right to be cut some slack too.

Serious question: How much of this evidence came out as a result of the trial?

I didn't follow the case at all but my argument consistently has been you can't judge someone until the actual evidence -- including the strength of the case and any mitigating circumstances -- comes out in a trial.

 

[Pukka]

Serious question: How much of this evidence came out as a result of the trial?

I didn't follow the case at all but my argument consistently has been you can't judge someone until the actual evidence -- including the strength of the case and any mitigating circumstances -- comes out in a trial.

I can't see this guy getting off in a million years

 

[Limewood]

We have 1 200 Sri Lankan boat people arriving each month. Not to mention all the other irregular asylum seekers. Far more than a handful. They represent a huge problem in how we allocate our resources. They are expensive and we have no control over them.

Julia is getting the Kiwis to take 150 of the thousands, what a joke :evil:

 

[777]

And the award missing the point goes too ...

I can't see this guy getting off in a million years

 

[Pukka]

And the award missing the point goes too ...

Me obviously because its late and I've had a glass or 2 of wine but anyway Craig Thompson is Donald Ducked

 

[KitKat]

BTW I agree that clinical staff are in a parallel universe. It's probably the last remaining industry where some operational staff are resistant to improving safety systems.

Ummm... what is this about... are we going off topic?

 

[jetlagger]

Julia is getting the Kiwis to take 150 of the thousands, what a joke :evil:

Some sort of attempt to show 'compassionate values" & win 'pre polling" votes.... Politicians never fail to amaze me.. Especially in Australia. :evil:

 

[medhead]

As for visa-overstayers, they are not a problem. We know exactly who they are, because they went through the right channels to get here and we have their identity details. We know they haven't swiped their passport on the way out, so they are still here and eventually they will come to official notice and be deported. In the meantime, they are providing their own food and housing.

Actually visa overstayers take work off people who are legally living here

One cannot help but compare the promises last election made by Gillard to solve the problem Rudd had created. She was very big on putting the people-smugglers out of business. Promised a solution. Well, that hasn't worked out well, has it? Irregular boat arrivals are well up on anything we've ever seen before. Again, regardless of how one feels about asylum-seekers, this is ineptitude on a grand scale. Instead of the problem being fixed in a jiffy, it's gotten far worse.

That's a bit ironic really. Gillard has been prevented from implementing her promised solution by Abbott. IT's gotten worse because of politically obstructionism.

WTF ?? Are you serious medhead? My comments were apolitical and your branding them as rubbish suggests you have little comprehension, or sympathy towards, people with mental health issues. They had absolutely nothing to do with presumption of innocence etc. I deliberately made no reference to Abbott, Gillard or even Craig Thompson because I was drawing attention only to the fact that shoplifting committed by depressed people was usually symptomatic of other issues that warrant psychological treatment rather than police charges - and that we should show some compassion to ANYONE suffering from mental illness. I was speaking from experience of having a high achieving and wealthy female member of my family, who shoplifted a $9.00 packet of biscuits as a result of depression brought about as a result of being molested by her father-in-law.

I'm deadly serious. Have a read of what you wrote. It is absolute rubbish. Mary-jo Fisher herself has come out and said that her politial opponents did not do anything against her. She blames the police alone. So you statement is absolutely wrong. Then you bang on about suicide, which has not been suggested at all. The clear implication of your ramblings is that her political opponents were going to make her top herself. That is not support by the facts and hence is rubbish. I can't believe you can right such mis-infomation that is not supported by the facts and then have to gall to attack me for pulling you up.

The biggest joke is that you are so blind in supporting Abbott that you can't see the hypocrisy in his various positions.

Oh and Mary Jo's defence was based around anxiety and confusion. Not depression. Can I assume you're just making that as well?

Given her known emotional frailty, certainly the way Ms Fisher was treated by her political opponents, and apparently some members of the SA police, was tantamount to abuse and therefore reprehensible - especially as suicide in such cases is not unheard of (I should add I have no knowledge as to whether Ms Fisher was suicidal or not).

Careful I am working in Nuclear Medicine this week.

I've tried very hard not to make any overly specific comments. But I'll make sure I come down and keep a close eye on you.

 

[dragonman]

It is to me the saddest thing about this forum. The aggressive ultra right wing vitriol I so often read here. Compassion? Not a chance. It seems to me we have an employment level the envy of so many first world countries. A level of debt that is minuscule in comparison to the US, UK and most of Europe for that matter.

We disparage our prime minister in subtle ways, more often than not I feel because of her two sins. She is a woman and her voice grates. I have said elsewhere and I reiterate here - many contributors here would happily have executed Lindy Chamberlain - to a large extent because she is a woman and the tabloids went after her.

i stay here because it is to a large extent a helpful educative forum, the benefits of which I have really enjoyed. Mostly flame free - but I expect, in my case, for not much longer.

 

[jetlagger]

It is to me the saddest thing about this forum. The aggressive ultra right wing vitriol I so often read here. Compassion? Not a chance. It seems to me we have an employment level the envy of so many first world countries. A level of debt that is minuscule in comparison to the US, UK and most of Europe for that matter.

We disparage our prime minister in subtle ways, more often than not I feel because of her two sins. She is a woman and her voice grates. I have said elsewhere and I reiterate here - many contributors here would happily have executed Lindy Chamberlain - to a large extent because she is a woman and the tabloids went after her.


i stay here because it is to a large extent a helpful educative forum, the benefits of which I have really enjoyed. Mostly flame free - but I expect, in my case, for not much longer.

That is the wonderful benefit of freedom of speech & democracy.. We are all entitled to our opinion & can express our preferred views as such.

 

[Mal]

It seems to me we have an employment level the envy of so many first world countries. A level of debt that is minuscule in comparison to the US, UK and most of Europe for that matter.
.

Only because of mining. Australia would have been stuffed if mining didn't prop up the economy. And the current government keeps squandering away the mining income. When the mining boom stops, Australia is stuffed.

 

[jetlagger]

Only because of mining. Australia would have been stuffed if mining didn't prop up the economy. And the current government keeps squandering away the mining income. When the mining boom stops, Australia is stuffed.

Agreed.. & the incredulous scheme of offering additional thousands more of 457 visas, as our current qualified & willing Australians lay idle seeking respectable employment opportunities.
As much as the current Government talk up their very underwhelming achievements.

 

[Skyring]

So your definition of "perfectly satisfactory" extends to measures that :-

- incite the plebs to fear boat refugees whilst ignoring the real "illegals" who arrive by plane and the majority of whom have their asylum claims rejected
- fail to meet our obligations under the treaty we signed
- have been demonstrated to traumatise genuine refugees (particularly children)
- included boat interception and towing duties which did involve fatalities and traumatised navy personnel

There is no perfect solution to this world-wide problem, which I suppose makes it perfect ammunition for the devioius to distract the small-minded from serious and humane debate

As we see. My idea of a perfect solution is one where the participants don't die as part of the process.

You may argue technicalities as much as you wish, but if you are telling us that a scheme that involves hundreds of deaths each year is better than one where nobody dies, then you need to rearrange your priorities.

 

[Skyring]

Actually visa overstayers take work off people who are legally living here
...
That's a bit ironic really. Gillard has been prevented from implementing her promised solution by Abbott. IT's gotten worse because of politically obstructionism.

i don't think anybody is championing visa overstayers as a good thing. Think of immigration as holding a party and sending out invites. Australia is a party country in the eyes of many, and certainly the standard of living, the stability, the tolerance and all the things we love about our nation make us an attractive destination.

You send out invites, cater for those who respond, and the party proceeds well. Until the viral call to gatecrashers goes out and suddenly your home is full of hundreds of people you didn't invite and you don't want.

The visa overstayers were invited, and if they don't leave when asked, you may tip them out when you find them curled up on the couch or swilling your beer in the kitchen. The irregular arrivals, you are stuck with. The police won't cart them away without an order from the High Court, and until then, keep the beer and party pies flowing and put up some tents in the backyard. Maybe the neighbours can be paid to house a few. Maybe not.

Gillard's promised solution didn't involve Malaysia. That came after the election. A long way after she was knocked back by East Timor. And the High Court. Tony Abbott controls neither of those entities. Julia Gillard is sitting in the big chair, pulling in the big money, holding the wheel. The buck stops with her.

You say that Tony Abbott is to blame because he wouldn't play ball? I say that Julia Gillard is to blame for the exact same reason. Neither coöperated, but Julia is the person in the driver's seat.

She could have made the Malaysia thing a confidence matter. She could have forced a double dissolution via the Senate. She could have used Parliament to force an outcome.

She chose to do none of those things. And we now have the current situation where people are dying by the boatload, people are being crammed into detention camps, both at rates far higher than anything we saw in the Howard years, and Gillard washes her hands of the promises she made to the Australian people to gain their votes, and she blames the High Court, Tony Abbott, peoplesmugglers, anybody but the person being paid to do the job. Herself.