Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[SQ421]

You'd think that the documented evidence that even Julia Gillard was calling the tax a tax, therefore admitting that she had broken her promise, would be enough, but no…

It is as much a tax as a road toll is a tax. Which is to say not at all. It is a price on emissions. A user fee. Polluter pays.

Did Gillard break an election promise? Yes. Did Gillard lie? No.

For the statement "There will be no Carbon Tax under a Government I lead, but I remain committed to putting a price on Carbon" to be a lie, Gillard would have had to known 11 days prior to the election that she would be forced to form a minority Government and as such will not be able to stick to that statement. As someone who can't get enough of the context in which a statement is made, well, that particular statement was made in the run up to an election, where each political candidate makes a promise based on the presumption that they would be forming Government, you seem to conveniently ignore the context of this statement, which makes every statement Abbott makes about PM Gillard having lied, a mendacious retelling of facts.

That he has made headway is besides the fact.

And I don't believe Tony Abbott is always wrong, I think he is spot on when he says he is no tech head.

 

[SQ421]

You'd think that the documented evidence that even Julia Gillard was calling the tax a tax, therefore admitting that she had broken her promise, would be enough, but no…

You'd also think that the documented evidence it isn't a tax would be enough, but no...

You see, drsmithy, For some people, it is a matter of faith that their chosen party, sporting team or philosophy must always be right and any opposition wrong.

 

[SQ421]

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian


The argument is actually really, really simple: it's not legislated as a tax, it's legislated as an ETS with an initial fixed price period. Anyone can call it whatever the hell they want, but that's what it actually *is*, per the law of the land.

In reality, the people banging on about the "carbon tax lie" simply lack the honesty and intellectual integrity to say "I don't think climate change is real and I don't think there should be a price on carbon".

To break it down further, if a road toll had an introductory price of $x per vehicle for a fixed period, subsequently changing to a variable fee based on the number of axle's the vehicle has, would that suddenly stop being a toll and become a tax?

 

[Skyring]

Did Gillard break an election promise? Yes. Did Gillard lie? No.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. A lie is a deliberate untruth, and I'm sure Gillard didn't mean to introduce a carbon tax.

The bit that gets me is that she wasn't forced to introduce the carbon tax at all. She didn't need to seduce the Greens into supporting her - the Greens wouldn't have chosen the Coalition over Labor in a pink fit. They must have conned her good.

 

[drron]

SQ421 the following statement is what I googled-
"There will be no Carbon Tax under a Government I lead, but I remain committed to putting a price on Carbon"

The first time it comes up on Google is January 2013.I can not remember her saying it during the election campaign.I can remember her saying the first part not the second.
If she had said it why didn't she just produce the video of it in answer to Tony abbott?
She may well have said it before the election campaign but I can find no evidence of it.
So I went to the ABC and a selection of Julia Gillard quotes they collected-
Julia Gillard's year in quotes - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Now there is a quote about carbon pricing before the campaign but the quote from the campaign is the generally believed one.

 

[medhead]

Calm down. Please. What policies has TA pulled out of his back pocket over the past week? Perhaps you'd like to list them for us?

But your man Rudd has certainly been pulling some surprises out, hasn't he? Dropping the carbon tax, sending cops to PNG, cleaning up the NSW Right (need help with the branch-stacking there, Kevin?), altering the federal ALP leadership process, economic migrants to Manus, jumping up for marriage equality...

Nothing concrete, of course, nothing happening immediately. Just a bunch of press releases and sound bites crafted by the staffers.

Another day, another headline. How much of this has been run past Cabinet, do you think?

And what's the betting tomorrow brings another lovely surprise announcement as Kevin pumps the media handle, just like the good old days?

Come off the grass, Medhead. Rudd is running his old familiar soundbite solution razzle-dazzle routine and you know it.

Calm down? How about you stop defending Abbott and his 3 word catchphrases? You're absolutely right Abbott hasn't pulled out any policy now or forever, beyond stop the boats, ditch the witch and cut the tax. That is not policy.

As for Rudd. the man has come on as leader of the ALP and as PM to make changes. WTF do you expect him to do, make changes or sit on his hands. Lets not forget that he has been PM for 3 weeks of course he has to outline his policy position. He has to make change, that is the whole point of him taking the top job. Really you criticism is pretty pointless, and misguided. The only one who needs to get off the grass, is the person who things change isn't going to happen. Otu with Gillard means a new policy agenda. REally not sure why you can't understand such a basic concept.

For someone who hates people who blindly support their team, you seem to do a good job of blindly supporting Abbott.

 

[SQ421]

SQ421 the following statement is what I googled-
"There will be no Carbon Tax under a Government I lead, but I remain committed to putting a price on Carbon"

From The Australian

"I don't rule out the possibility of legislating a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, a market-based mechanism," she said of the next parliament. "I rule out a carbon tax."

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

And YouTube

Julia Gillard did not lie about Carbon Tax (There is No Carbon Tax in Australia) - YouTube

And iirc there's another youtube video, the link to which I have saved somewhere as I remember emailing it to my local MP. I'll try and dig that one up as well.

 

[medhead]

Seems Tony Abbott has been watching the Rumble in the Jungle. Bit of practice to get to Ali's ability to wax lyrical, but it will prove to be entertaining all the same. More power to him.

Maybe he can try to work in this one:

"It will be a killer and a chiller and a thriller when I get the gorilla in Manila"

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Calm down? How about you stop defending Abbott and his 3 word catchphrases? You're absolutely right Abbott hasn't pulled out any policy now or forever, beyond stop the boats, ditch the witch and cut the tax. That is not policy.

As for Rudd. the man has come on as leader of the ALP and as PM to make changes. WTF do you expect him to do, make changes or sit on his hands. Lets not forget that he has been PM for 3 weeks of course he has to outline his policy position. He has to make change, that is the whole point of him taking the top job. Really you criticism is pretty pointless, and misguided. The only one who needs to get off the grass, is the person who things change isn't going to happen. Otu with Gillard means a new policy agenda. REally not sure why you can't understand such a basic concept.

For someone who hates people who blindly support their team, you seem to do a good job of blindly supporting Abbott.

Stop the boats : used by Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard on multiple occasions
Ditch the witch : never spoken by TA, but in a sign behind him in a public place which he was likely unaware of. If I stand behind you with a sign that says 'idiot' does that make you an idiot? I wouldn't have thought so.
Cut the tax : pretty much all coalition policy is about reducing the size and complexity of governments allowing citizens to be free of oppressive regulation and taxes, and I'm not aware of any member of the public who would like to be taxed more, but no doubt there are far-left non-tax paying university students who can argue the merits of socialism - Julia being one of them back in the day.

As for Kevin Rudd, I find it very convenient that those on the left have conveniently forgotten what a shambles their party actually was when last he was the leader. The evidence of the imminent dysfunction is clear in the current mass exodus of senior Labor figures. Sounds like you may be 'blinded' by the very same ideology to which you accuse others of.

The policies currently being trotted out by Rudd are populist, campaign policies with no regard for the future of the country, and will have no effect on sentiment, which is at an all time low due to a large amount of uncertainty over the government's 'policy on the fly' approach. At least they have been consistently inconsistent - much like a certain flag carrier we all know.

Stop the boats : the coalition have a proven track record in this area with the combination of tough border laws and temporary protection visas.

Ditch the witch : kind of a moot point considering the Labor party looked after that one.

Cut the tax : well Kevin is taking care of that through an array of smoke and mirrors for campaign reasons. Unfortunately the flawed system will remain. Greatest moral challenge of our time was it Kev? Under the coalition the scheme will be terminated in whole.

Any other three word slogans that require further explanation or should we just start with those?

 

[medhead]

Cut the tax : pretty much all coalition policy is about reducing the size and complexity of governments allowing citizens to be free of oppressive regulation and taxes, and I'm not aware of any member of the public who would like to be taxed more, but no doubt there are far-left non-tax paying university students who can argue the merits of socialism - Julia being one of them back in the day.

Oh that is so funny. PMSL So how is Direct Action small government. How is a great, big new tax for paid parental leave small government. How does the coalition's paid parental leave in anyway honour the fundamental principles of The Liberal Party. Or any other welfare measures for people in the top 20% of income earners. I think perhaps you need to pay more attention to abbott's three word slogans.

As for Kevin Rudd, I find it very convenient that those on the left have conveniently forgotten what a shambles their party actually was when last he was the leader. The evidence of the imminent dysfunction is clear in the current mass exodus of senior Labor figures. Sounds like you may be 'blinded' by the very same ideology to which you accuse others of.

Suggest you go read my comments on this point earlier in the thread.

The policies currently being trotted out by Rudd are populist, campaign policies with no regard for the future of the country, and will have no effect on sentiment, which is at an all time low due to a large amount of uncertainty over the government's 'policy on the fly' approach. At least they have been consistently inconsistent - much like a certain flag carrier we all know.

No, they are addressing all the criticisms that Abbott made of Gillard. I guess that's the problem for you because you'll be left with nothing more to complain about when Rudd addresses all of the issues that Abbott has raised. I guess that's why he is resorting to alliteration. His 3 word catchphrases are falling down around him.

Any other three word slogans that require further explanation or should we just start with those?

You haven't explained anything at all. But perhaps you might benefit from finding them yourself. Then you might have a chance to realise how much Abbott has betrayed the principles of The Liberal Party.

 

[Skyring]

You see, drsmithy, For some people, it is a matter of faith that their chosen party, sporting team or philosophy must always be right and any opposition wrong.

LOL! I don't care if it's a tax or not. The fact that both Rudd and Gillard have called it a tax puts those who are insisting that it wasn't in an awkward position.

Which is what makes the discussion interesting.

 

[Skyring]

Calm down? How about you stop defending Abbott and his 3 word catchphrases?

And just where did I ever do that? Get a grip.

 

[drsmithy]

LOL! I don't care if it's a tax or not. The fact that both Rudd and Gillard have called it a tax puts those who are insisting that it wasn't in an awkward position.

It doesn't make a difference if they call it a tax, a levy, a surcharge, a toll, or anything else. It's legislated as an ETS, so that's what it is.

 

[Skyring]

As for Rudd. the man has come on as leader of the ALP and as PM to make changes. WTF do you expect him to do, make changes or sit on his hands. Lets not forget that he has been PM for 3 weeks of course he has to outline his policy position. He has to make change, that is the whole point of him taking the top job.

LOL! No it's not. He got the big bounce in the polls merely by replacing Gillard. It was immediate. That's why the ALP dumped Gillard - they were going to lose big and the polls showed that if Rudd was the leader they'd have a chance. As just about every commentator put it - they could save the furniture.

Those polls came out, and those decisions were made, while Rudd's public statements on the matter were limited to bland statements of support for the PM.

The first poll after the transition showed a big bounce for Rudd, and in those five intervening days no polices were announced because the media were still dealing with the transition story.

My points about Rudd's policy announcements are threefold:
1. They are political solutions to practical problems - just like Gillard three years ago.
2. They are being rolled out to fit the media cycle - every day a new headline.
3. They give every appearance of having been scratched together without any Cabinet involvement. How come the relevant ministers aren't making the announcements?

 

[Skyring]

For someone who hates people who blindly support their team, you seem to do a good job of blindly supporting Abbott.

Again LOL! That's just silly. I don't hate anyone. When did I ever say I did? It's behaviour I look on - not people.

As for blindly supporting a political team, that's not even something to criticise, let alone hate. It's too widespread for that. The phrase "rusted-on supporters" probably applies to about half of all voters - they vote for the same team election after election.

And as for blindly supporting Abbott, geez, I've been giving him a serve over his religious and cultural attitudes for years. Most recently today when I criticised his attitudes toward marriage equality and womens' reproductive roles.

How come you haven't calmed down, as I suggested, and actually read what I wrote? It would make the discussion less stressful, for sure.

 

[SQ421]

The fact that both Rudd and Gillard have called it a tax puts those who are insisting that it wasn't in an awkward position.

Does it matter if Rudd calls it a Carbon Tax or if Abbott does? Fact remains that it is not a tax.

I suspect Rudd's use of the phrase "axing the Carbon Tax" is more directed to Abbott's use of that incorrect phrase.

Now Tony has to keep explaining why this and that is the same and his direct action policy is the magical solution to fixing the invisible stuff.

 

[SQ421]

My points about Rudd's policy announcements are threefold:
1. They are political solutions to practical problems - just like Gillard three years ago.
2. They are being rolled out to fit the media cycle - every day a new headline.
3. They give every appearance of having been scratched together without any Cabinet involvement. How come the relevant ministers aren't making the announcements?

1. It is politics.

2. So? Does any Government do otherwise? If Abbott were to discuss policy, would he not roll it out to fit the media cycle?

3. Now you are just clutching at straws, but that's ok.

 

[serfty]

Does it matter if Rudd calls it a Carbon Tax or if Abbott does? Fact remains that it is not a tax. ...

see post 4335 ...

 

[Skyring]

So? Does any Government do otherwise? If Abbott were to discuss policy, would he not roll it out to fit the media cycle?

I'm sure he will, once the election is called and we get into the usual campaign routine.

So when has Rudd been developing these policies? Been plotting away at policies that would pull the ALP out of a hole and not sharing them? That's pretty selfish.

Or just making them up since becoming PM?

Either way, that's not real reassuring.

 

[SQ421]

I'm sure he will, once the election is called and we get into the usual campaign routine.

Really? The man has been on a campaign routine since 22 August 2010. Begging for an election.

So when has Rudd been developing these policies? Been plotting away at policies that would pull the ALP out of a hole and not sharing them? That's pretty selfish.

Or just making them up since becoming PM?

Either way, that's not real reassuring.

Privy to inner machinations of the ALP, are you? Or is this just mere speculation?

Maybe he had prepared a list of policy changes he'd have to bring in if he got the top job.
Maybe part of the reason for ALP to elect him as the leader was because it would've been untenable to change these policies under Gillard.

What's not reassuring is a man who's been begging to run the country for near on three years not being able to articulate any policies, and having his minders truncate press conferences the moment an unscripted question is asked.