Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[drsmithy]

A handful of socialists are appearing in this thread. To refer a previous post:

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
― Margaret Thatcher

Define for us what you think "socialism" is.

 

[drsmithy]

Julia Gillard's cabinet?

I wouldn't have picked you as someone who thought Gillard's Government was "well run".

 

[drsmithy]

Why is stemming the tide of illegal queue jumpers unethical or morally bankrupt?

They're not "illegal".
They're not "queue jumpers".

What's morally and ethically bankrupt is a refugee policy based in trying to be so inhumane that refugees would rather be in warzones that seek asylum here.

 

[medhead]

They're not "illegal".
They're not "queue jumpers".

What's morally and ethically bankrupt is a refugee policy based in trying to be so inhumane that refugees would rather be in warzones that seek asylum here.

The problem is Indonesia is not a war zone. Having said that the lack of a regional established "queue" is clearly a massive issue. Howard certainly didn't address the underlying problems, preferring to treat the symptoms instead.

 

[Pushka]

Turning the boats as Abbott reckons he will ("wherever possible") is going to be unfeasible, not to mention a legal and diplomatic minefield.
.

That is gold.

 

[Moody]

Looking at this calmly (I know) what I think will happen is this .....

Asylum seekers who arrive by boat will be sent to PNG to be processed. I have no problem with that and don't believe it is a 2-tier system, as those who arrive by other channels have at least satisfied some sort of entry criteria. If they then want to overstay their visa and/or claim asylum then that is rightly Australia's problem.

Those sent to PNG will (eventually) either be accepted as genuine refugees or not. If not they will be sent back to their point of origin, and if they are they will be settled in PNG. I have no problem with that as I think the high cost initially (which will be paid for by Oz) will reduce markedly once this process beds in, and whilst PNG is not on my top 10 places to live I don't think asylum seekers should be able to pick and choose. Of course safety is a major concern and will need to be monitored closely.

Contrary to what Kevin Rudd says, I think once an asylum seeker is accepted as a refugee they will be able to apply to come to Oz if they like. Not as a refugee of course but under the normal migration program. Nothing wrong with that from my point of view.

So if this works then there should be far fewer boats taking the dangerous trip across to Oz, and no need to have naval confrontations with warships trying to forcibly tow boats back whilst the passengers try to sink themselves. That's a plus isn't it? Also it should reward those refugees that don't take the risk and with the reduction in hysteria about boat people I can see no electoral backlash in increasing the yearly intake.


Nice that Abbott has basically agreed with this tactic (one better than the "no advantage" scheme) and I will forgive his little quip that "Rudd won't be able to deliver on it".

 

[SQ421]

That is gold.

Presuming you disagree, care to enlighten us why turning back the boats won't be those two things?

 

[Pukka]

Define for us what you think "socialism" is.

The philosophy of failure and the gospel of envy

 

[Pushka]

Presuming you disagree, care to enlighten us why turning back the boats won't be those two things?

I've actually given up responding with reasoned discussion on this thread as it is ignored. When I've made less rigorous points and outright opinion, or anecdotal info, only then does it get commented on. So there's no point really, is there.

 

[SQ421]

I've actually given up responding with reasoned discussion on this thread as it is ignored. When I've made less rigorous points and outright opinion, or anecdotal info, only then does it get commented on. So there's no point really, is there.

OKay, we'll go with that.

 

[drsmithy]

The philosophy of failure and the gospel of envy

Like capitalism is the philosophy of selfishness and gospel of greed ?

 

[drron]

Turning the boats as Abbott reckons he will ("wherever possible") is going to be unfeasible, not to mention a legal and diplomatic minefield.

The charade ends when a boat starts to sink near a Naval vessel. The vessel then has to render assitance to the drowning mariners, who can claim asylum as soon as they are on an Australian Naval Vessel at which point they can not be turned back.

You should really go back and study what happenned when John Howard ordered the boats to be turned back.The head of the Navy at the time was interviewed by Barry Cassisy on the ABC earlier this year.The Navy intercepted 8 boats.Four were turned around.Supplied with enough fuel to reach Indonesia and sent on their way.They were not towed back,the navy did not enter Indonesian waters and the Indonesians were informed of what was happenning.
Barry Cassidy then asked if only 4 boats were turned back was the practice an effective policy.The admiral arepied yes because after 4 boats were turned back the boats stopped coming.
To turn boats back from your territorial waters is not illegal.Australia has a perfect right to do so.
So all this cough about TAs policy being illegal is just that,cough.As is this utterly stupid towing the boats back slogan.

And just remember in the 1977 election campaign both Gough Whitlam and Bob Hawke campaigned on the policy of not letting Vietnamese boats land in Australia.

 

[SQ421]

To turn boats back from your territorial waters is not illegal.Australia has a perfect right to do so.

So all this cough about TAs policy being illegal is just that,cough. As is this utterly stupid towing the boats back slogan.

Yeah, the boats can be refuelled and turned back while they are sea worthy. Which isn't what will cause problems.

What will cause problems is when Asylum seekers start sinking their boat within reach of the naval vessels. At which point assistance has to be provided and they can no longer be "turned back".

Anyone think the people smugglers haven't smartened up since the boats were last turned back?

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

 

[Skyring]

Yeah, the boats can be refuelled and turned back while they are sea worthy. Which isn't what will cause problems.

What will cause problems is when Asylum seekers start sinking their boat within reach of the naval vessels. At which point assistance has to be provided and they can no longer be "turned back".

Sounds like you've got a good handle on their tactics. How would you stop them setting out - and some of them drowning?

 

[drsmithy]

Sounds like you've got a good handle on their tactics. How would you stop them setting out - and some of them drowning?

Make it easier and quicker for refugees to claim asylum from foreign locales.

 

[Moody]

Sounds like you've got a good handle on their tactics. How would you stop them setting out - and some of them drowning?

..... or maybe it's the new "Go directly to PNG - do not pass Australia" rule????

 

[drron]

Yeah, the boats can be refuelled and turned back while they are sea worthy. Which isn't what will cause problems.

What will cause problems is when Asylum seekers start sinking their boat within reach of the naval vessels. At which point assistance has to be provided and they can no longer be "turned back".

Anyone think the people smugglers haven't smartened up since the boats were last turned back?

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

And 50% were not turned back for that very reason that they were not seaworthy.
Then you need the backup plan.Temporary protection visas and no rubber stamping of refugee applications.I will post a link when i get back to my computer.
Iranians make up a third of the boat people now.They hop on a plane,fly to Indonesia and in 7 days they are at Christmas Island.These are not people who have been hanging around in refugee camps.And the problem for Mr.Rudd's plan is that Iran will not take them back.So if sent to PNG they are likely still to be our problem.
Mr.Rudd got an agreement from Indonesia to stop visas on arrival for Iranians.The next day the Indonesian Ambassador to Iran was canvassing for direct flights from Iran to Indonesia.I am not sure Mr.Rudd is held in as much respect as he thinks he is.

 

[medhead]

Correspondence received today from my local member now makes me wonder what's really going on with asylum seekers. By all accounts Rudd undid the Howard system in 2008. So this figure from my member shows that there was an increase post that change. But why the 3 to 4 year delay until a bigger increase? And why the massive increase in the last year? Something must have changed more than what Rudd did 5/6 years ago.

View attachment 17223

 

[Mak404matt]

Today's Morgan Poll marks three weeks straight of a prediction of an ALP win, ALP 52.5% --> LNP 47.5% 2PP

 

[Skyring]

Today's Morgan Poll marks three weeks straight of a prediction of an ALP win, ALP 52.5% --> LNP 47.5% 2PP

Looks like he's sunk 4.5% in a couple of hours - Newspoll has the Coalition cruising and Rudd losing.

Honeymoon's over, warm up the next one.