Qantas’ Hidden Standby

[kangarooflyer88]

Re bolded text… incorrect. There is NO obligation that you mention.

To escape liability under MC99 the airline just has to show it took reasonable measures. And weather related issue - unlike EC261/UK261- are also considered excuses to obligations under MC99.

In the case of weather you are right. However in my case (QF483) the reason stated was operational reasons (a fancy way of saying commercial reasons) and not weather. Indeed, additional flights to Melbourne took off after my cancelled flight so it clearly wasn’t a weather issue.

With the recent weather in MEL/SYD/BNE… it’s highly unlikely MC99 would cover anything.

If weather prevents a flight from departing or landing safely that’s one thing. But if weather causes disruptions in the network that has a knock on effect to my flight, that’s on Qantas.

EC261 and MC99 have completely different thresholds… which is exactly the reason why EC261 was introduced.

Correct, under EU261 irrespective of the reason for the disruption they must always provide a duty of care including meals, hotel (if an overnight is required) and phone calls. In this regard this is something the Europeans do better than anywhere else in the world.

 

[mannej]

In the case of weather you are right. However in my case (QF483) the reason stated was operational reasons (a fancy way of saying commercial reasons) and not weather. Indeed, additional flights to Melbourne took off after my cancelled flight so it clearly wasn’t a weather issue.

View attachment 417104

If weather prevents a flight from departing or landing safely that’s one thing. But if weather causes disruptions in the network that has a knock on effect to my flight, that’s on Qantas

Not necessarily. Was on a flight last Monday evening that had the same notation. Aircraft arrived on time, cabin crew were ready but the tech crew were delayed due to the inbound flight they were on being delayed due to the impact of the Melbourne weather.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Not necessarily. Was on a flight last Monday evening that had the same notation. Aircraft arrived on time, cabin crew were ready but the tech crew were delayed due to the inbound flight they were on being delayed due to the impact of the Melbourne weather.

Crew scheduling is within the control of the airline. It is foreseeable that crew can become unavailable from time to time such as timing out or alternatively being on a delayed flight from their base, etc. This is precisely why airlines have reserve crew to deal with these eventualities. So then the question becomes, to what extent did Qantas have sufficient contingencies for such events?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

In the case of weather you are right. However in my case (QF483) the reason stated was operational reasons (a fancy way of saying commercial reasons) and not weather. Indeed, additional flights to Melbourne took off after my cancelled flight so it clearly wasn’t a weather issue.

View attachment 417104

If weather prevents a flight from departing or landing safely that’s one thing. But if weather causes disruptions in the network that has a knock on effect to my flight, that’s on Qantas.

Correct, under EU261 irrespective of the reason for the disruption they must always provide a duty of care including meals, hotel (if an overnight is required) and phone calls. In this regard this is something the Europeans do better than anywhere else in the world.

MC99 is based on reasonable measures. A delay earlier in the day could well be a reason for the airline to avoid MC99. That’s quite different to the operation of EC261.

MC99 doesn’t require the airline to take every possible measure… only those which are reasonable. BA and Lufthansa have spare aircraft sitting idle at their major hubs to avoid EC261. Is that reasonable? Probably not. But it’s a requirement the airlines have decided they need to avoid payout. But it’s not a requirement under MC99.

It’s the same with your crew example. Under 261, airlines might have spare crews. Under MC99 it might not be reasonable for them to have crews on standby.

As mannej alludes to, an operational delay is not necessarily a commercial one. It could be because of disruption earlier in the day. It could be safety related.

 

[jpp42]

As mannej alludes to, an operational delay is not necessarily a commercial one. It could be because of disruption earlier in the day. It could be safety related.

There must be precedents/caselaw about this (for MC99), for example if you are a large domestic airline like Qantas and have ZERO standby crews at a major hub like Sydney, how is that "reasonable?" As KF points out, it's totally foreseeable that on any given day, something will happen to *some* flight and cause impact to others due to aircraft or crewing availability. Can airlines really stand back and say they couldn't possibly imagine that a flight would ever be late causing crew to time out, and hence they don't think they should ever schedule a standby crew? Surely that wouldn't be "reasonable."

That said, if there are major thunderstorms and dozens of flights are delayed, it's unreasonable to expect an airline to have dozens of spare planes and crews, so in that case it would be totally reasonable to assume cancellations of subsequent flights could still be blamed on that weather earlier in the day and not be under the airline's liability.

Reasonableness under the law is all about context.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Bringing this back to the topic at hand (although perhaps a discussion on your rights under Australian domestic and international travel regime may be worthy of its own thread) I do have a question relating to this “standby” feature I found. Does anyone have experience being downgraded (or alternatively upgraded im these circumstances?) for instance, suppose the only seat Qantas had available on that flight was in business, would they upgrade me to J for free or would I be required to pay out of pocket to secure that seat? Alternatively QF could OpUp an elite in such a circumstance. Similarly suppose I was travelling in business but there was just economy seats left on this flight, could a traveller request downgraded credit?

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There must be precedents/caselaw about this (for MC99), for example if you are a large domestic airline like Qantas and have ZERO standby crews at a major hub like Sydney, how is that "reasonable?" As KF points out, it's totally foreseeable that on any given day, something will happen to *some* flight and cause impact to others due to aircraft or crewing availability. Can airlines really stand back and say they couldn't possibly imagine that a flight would ever be late causing crew to time out, and hence they don't think they should ever schedule a standby crew? Surely that wouldn't be "reasonable."

That said, if there are major thunderstorms and dozens of flights are delayed, it's unreasonable to expect an airline to have dozens of spare planes and crews, so in that case it would be totally reasonable to assume cancellations of subsequent flights could still be blamed on that weather earlier in the day and not be under the airline's liability.

Reasonableness under the law is all about context.

Airlines do have standby crew. Do they need to be sitting at the airport or is being ‘available and on call’ sufficient?

Although a few months ago I was on a QF flight, which was waiting for the operating crew on another inbound flight. They had a temporary set of cabin crew go on, board the plane, then do a handover when the operating crew arrived. So that must indeed be a ‘thing’, at least for qantas.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Bringing this back to the topic at hand (although perhaps a discussion on your rights under Australian domestic and international travel regime may be worthy of its own thread) I do have a question relating to this “standby” feature I found. Does anyone have experience being downgraded (or alternatively upgraded im these circumstances?) for instance, suppose the only seat Qantas had available on that flight was in business, would they upgrade me to J for free or would I be required to pay out of pocket to secure that seat? Alternatively QF could OpUp an elite in such a circumstance. Similarly suppose I was travelling in business but there was just economy seats left on this flight, could a traveller request downgraded credit?

-RooFlyer88

Yes, you could request a downgrade credit.

The airline may or may not upgrade you for free. If they didn’t upgrade you for free, and the only seat left is in business, they’re not obligated to give that to you, or to upgrade another passenger in order to accommodate you.

The conditions of carriage apply. They outline the contractual arrangements in the event of irrops… which is generally uplift on the next available flight (in your class of service), or, in some cases, a refund.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Another point: how does this hidden standby process work for international flights? For instance suppose your SYD > SIN gets cancelled and you’re rebooked on a flight for the following day but there’s another (full) QF flight for SIN departing in a few hours, could you hang around the gate there? Is there a formal standby process?

Yes, you could request a downgrade credit.

Good to know!

The airline may or may not upgrade you for free. If they didn’t upgrade you for free, and the only seat left is in business, they’re not obligated to give that to you, or to upgrade another passenger in order to accommodate you.

So it’s up to the discretion of the agent? Noted! Next time I’ll be sure to buy a few chocolates from the store. What I’ve learned from this travel experience is the gate agents have a lot of discretion and so it’s crucial to treat them well.

-RooFlyer88

 

[jpp42]

So it’s up to the discretion of the agent? Noted! Next time I’ll be sure to buy a few chocolates from the store. What I’ve learned from this travel experience is the gate agents have a lot of discretion and so it’s crucial to treat them well.

It is interesting to note how much is in fact at the agent's discretion, compared to how US airlines work. I suspect US airlines learned the hard way that having it all computer-based - making upgrades and standbies totally transparent, even showing on screens at the gate - is a fairer experience in the long run. There would be too much pressure for agents to accept "tips" for inappropriate upgrades and the like.

Another point that isn't mentioned in this thread so far is the position of staff travellers. How does an agent decide whether to give a seat from a no-show to a staff traveller or to a paid traveler lurking nearby at the gate? Obviously they should preference the paid fare, but if there is no official system to document this, there's plausable deniability for an agent to approve a staff traveller over the standby pax who they could claim never existed.

I had an experience on another airline once where I was standby due to a ticketing stuff-up, but the computer immediately catapulted me to the top of the list in front of all staff travellers, as it should be - but you don't have confidence that Qantas will actually do this consistently.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Another point that isn't mentioned in this thread so far is the position of staff travellers. How does an agent decide whether to give a seat from a no-show to a staff traveller or to a paid traveler lurking nearby at the gate? Obviously they should preference the paid fare, but if there is no official system to document this, there's plausable deniability for an agent to approve a staff traveller over the standby pax who they could claim never existed.

I have a data point there from yesterday's experience. On the first flight that went out full, there there was a Qantas crew that needed to fly out. He simply showed his badge and after a couple of calls, a boarding pass appeared. I'm unsure if the crew got a jump seat or how that worked. I'm also unsure if they were on duty or not (they were in uniform so I suspect so). Hence, it would seem that staff are placed at a higher priority in these instances, which makes sense.

-RooFlyer88

 

[jpp42]

I have a data point there from yesterday's experience. On the first flight that went out full, there there was a Qantas crew that needed to fly out. He simply showed his badge and after a couple of calls, a boarding pass appeared. I'm unsure if the crew got a jump seat or how that worked. I'm also unsure if they were on duty or not (they were in uniform so I suspect so). Hence, it would seem that staff are placed at a higher priority in these instances, which makes sense.

My comment was not about duty travel or deadheading by flight/cabin crew, which as you note can have operational priority. My comment was solely about "staff travel" which has specific meaning in the Qantas world - this is discretionary travel by any company staff, and is not usually carried out in uniform (though there are minimum dress standards).

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Another point: how does this hidden standby process work for international flights? For instance suppose your SYD > SIN gets cancelled and you’re rebooked on a flight for the following day but there’s another (full) QF flight for SIN departing in a few hours, could you hang around the gate there? Is there a formal standby process?


Good to know!

So it’s up to the discretion of the agent? Noted! Next time I’ll be sure to buy a few chocolates from the store. What I’ve learned from this travel experience is the gate agents have a lot of discretion and so it’s crucial to treat them well.

-RooFlyer88

There’s no formal standby process that I’m aware of for international flights. And I’d likely think that if your international flight was cancelled, you’d need to go out, clear the border and claim your bags.

Even if you were hand baggage only, border control would prolly be expecting a batch of affected pax to be returning to re-enter. Not sure if you could stay behind?

Buying chocolates… when are you going to give it to them? After you get the seat, or before? Either way it could be misconstrued as a payment.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

My comment was not about duty travel or deadheading by flight/cabin crew, which as you note can have operational priority. My comment was solely about "staff travel" which has specific meaning in the Qantas world - this is discretionary travel by any company staff, and is not usually carried out in uniform (though there are minimum dress standards).

Presumably it is acceptable for staff travel to occur whilst in uniform?

There’s no formal standby process that I’m aware of for international flights. And I’d likely think that if your international flight was cancelled, you’d need to go out, clear the border and claim your bags.

Even if they rebooked you on another international flight that day? It would seem strange to me having to clear immigration collect bags, check in for your rebooked flight, clear immigration and security again. Surely in those instances you can stay airside and board your new flight.

Now there is a grey area I concede where you are in the international zone but no longer hold a confirmed flight. In some countries like Singapore it’s an offence:


However, this is Australian and not Singapore and people tend to be more laid back when it comes to things like this. Certainly if you were occupying the transit area overnight a-la Mehran Karimi Nasseri then there may be an objection. But if you’re there for an hour or two particularly if you might be able to secure a new flight who would raise such a concern?

Buying chocolates… when are you going to give it to them? After you get the seat, or before? Either way it could be misconstrued as a payment.

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting in any way a fee for no service. I think it goes without saying that’s highly unethical behaviour. Instead, what I am suggesting is providing some chocolate to a gate agent after you receive the seat. In that way it is fee for service which doesn’t influence their decision making (as they weren’t aware of the gift before hand)

 

[p--and--t]

I think, could be wrong, you would strike major issues for some int destinations.

AFAIAA the flight manifest for some countries needs to be received and approved by the destination country immigration service during a specified window block before the aircraft is approved to push back.

I surmise getting you on to the manifest and approved during final boarding would be near impossible.

The US is one such country and I am led to believe there are others.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Presumably it is acceptable for staff travel to occur whilst in uniform?

Even if they rebooked you on another international flight that day? It would seem strange to me having to clear immigration collect bags, check in for your rebooked flight, clear immigration and security again. Surely in those instances you can stay airside and board your new flight.

Now there is a grey area I concede where you are in the international zone but no longer hold a confirmed flight. In some countries like Singapore it’s an offence:


However, this is Australian and not Singapore and people tend to be more laid back when it comes to things like this. Certainly if you were occupying the transit area overnight a-la Mehran Karimi Nasseri then there may be an objection. But if you’re there for an hour or two particularly if you might be able to secure a new flight who would raise such a concern?

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting in any way a fee for no service. I think it goes without saying that’s highly unethical behaviour. Instead, what I am suggesting is providing some chocolate to a gate agent after you receive the seat. In that way it is fee for service which doesn’t influence their decision making (as they weren’t aware of the gift before hand)

If you were rebooked on another flight, no issue.

But that’s not what you’re talking about.

You’re taking about waiting around for another flight, on standby, hoping for a no-show. I don’t know if Qantas issues standby tickets for members of the public (as opposed to staff).

Anyway, it’s a bit of a moot point because qantas doesn’t operate multiple daily flights to anywhere much except new zealand.

How do you think the ‘fee for service’ would look to another passenger who might be waiting too?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I don’t know if Qantas issues standby tickets for members of the public (as opposed to staff).

The agent I spoke to at the Qantas club indicated that Qantas does not do standby (at least for Joe public)

Anyway, it’s a bit of a moot point because qantas doesn’t operate multiple daily flights to anywhere much except new zealand.

Not necessarily. For instance, Qantas boasts 3 nonstops daily to Singapore. And we know Singapore is a big hub for flights to Europe and parts of Asia. It is possible for you to be booked on the 11 AM flight to S’pore only for it to cancel but there would then be two more options on Qantas the 2:30 and the 3:55 PM service. Both of those departing mere hours away from your flight so an argument could be made for hanging out near the gate to see if you could be assigned to one of those flights.

How do you think the ‘fee for service’ would look to another passenger who might be waiting too?

They just learned a lesson on why it’s important to be kind to others. Again, it didn’t influence their decision making as they already printed you the boarding passes before you made any mention of chocolates.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Himeno]

Another point: how does this hidden standby process work for international flights? For instance suppose your SYD > SIN gets cancelled and you’re rebooked on a flight for the following day but there’s another (full) QF flight for SIN departing in a few hours, could you hang around the gate there? Is there a formal standby process?

I was booked on QF37 (MEL-SIN) in late Oct 2019. The inbound aircraft was hit by lightening which triggered delays for maintenance checks and later a cancellation.
I was on a JL ticket connecting on to HND, positioning to start a DONE3.
Everyone else was rebooked onto EK405. I had to go backwards through immigration, collect bags and over to T1 to head up to SYD and QF25.
Don't remember if the cancellation happened early enough to have moved people to QF35.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The agent I spoke to at the Qantas club indicated that Qantas does not do standby (at least for Joe public)

Not necessarily. For instance, Qantas boasts 3 nonstops daily to Singapore. And we know Singapore is a big hub for flights to Europe and parts of Asia. It is possible for you to be booked on the 11 AM flight to S’pore only for it to cancel but there would then be two more options on Qantas the 2:30 and the 3:55 PM service. Both of those departing mere hours away from your flight so an argument could be made for hanging out near the gate to see if you could be assigned to one of those flights.


They just learned a lesson on why it’s important to be kind to others. Again, it didn’t influence their decision making as they already printed you the boarding passes before you made any mention of chocolates.

-RooFlyer88

what three daily flights to Singapore? They only have two from SYD… the 2 and 292.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

what three daily flights to Singapore? They only have two from SYD… the 2 and 292.