Qantas’ Hidden Standby

[elanshin]

View attachment 417150

83 is not a regular. The third flight happens once a week to cover the 291 finnair maintenance schedule.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

83 is not a regular. The third flight happens once a week to cover the 291 finnair maintenance schedule.

Not true. Qantas operates SYD > SIN three times per week (Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays).

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Not true. Qantas operates SYD > SIN three times per week (Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays).

I stand corrected!

I’ve never seen that extra flight before!

 

[SYD]

Not true. Qantas operates SYD > SIN three times per week (Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays).

Yet, U rewards across three flights on some days (including an A380) are as rare as rocking horse poo!…

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I stand corrected!

I’ve never seen that extra flight before!

Not just that, there are other international destinations beside NZ and SIN where QF operates multiple daily services out of SYD. For instance: SYD > HND operates twice daily (e.g., QF59 departing at 12:00 PM and QF25 departing at 21:55). Now yes, I will grant everyone that there is a nearly 10 hour gap between these flights, absolutely. But there is always the possibility that you are booked on QF59, it gets delayed by 4 hours before getting cancelled out (i.e. your cancellation occurs at 4 PM), at which point you need to wait, what 4 hours to see if you can get onto the next QF flight? I don't know the extent to which AFP and ABF patrol the international terminal, but hanging around for a couple extra hours is unlikely to raise eyebrows. And if you are unsuccessful and have to head back land side, you could always tell the ABF officer, "look I tried to get on the next QF flight, and I wasn't successful," I hardly doubt they're going to penalize you for making good on your intent to fly out that day. (Contrast this with people who abuse boarding passes to access First class lounges with no intention of flying).

Yet, U rewards across three flights on some days (including an A380) are as rare as rocking horse poo!…

Well that's business class, and I think that takes away from the thrust of my argument, if you are in a pinch and are facing the potential of an overnight, it might make sense to take any seat (including a downgrade to economy or premium economy) if it means getting you out that day. I completely understand that if you are on vacation and really want to enjoy the business class product, then by all means. However, I can think of some examples where that was the case such as you being a speaker scheduled to give a talk at an important conference or attending the funeral of a loved one. The whole point of this thread was again, giving travellers options when Qantas simply wouldn't give them any. As others have pointed out, most people would simply take the departure the following day as given and assume that was all there is. I sincerely hope more travellers realize that there is this other option and hopefully it can save their bacon.

 

[henrus]

VA on the other hand… once boarding starts they refuse to accept any additional passengers The flight may have empty seats but they won’t even entertain helping you out.

VA's system powered by Sabre operates very different to QFs in this regard. Until a few months ago VA had to cancel a passengers check in just to move them between flights, I believe the system now does this automatically but it's not possible to add someone to a flight once boarding has started (even standby need to be "booked" on that flight and checked in to be considered for a seat).

QFs system on the hand allows a passenger to be listed onto a flight regardless of what stage it's in and provided there is a valid ticket the system will allow the switch.

 

[elanshin]

Not just that, there are other international destinations beside NZ and SIN where QF operates multiple daily services out of SYD. For instance: SYD > HND operates twice daily (e.g., QF59 departing at 12:00 PM and QF25 departing at 21:55). Now yes, I will grant everyone that there is a nearly 10 hour gap between these flights, absolutely. But there is always the possibility that you are booked on QF59, it gets delayed by 4 hours before getting cancelled out (i.e. your cancellation occurs at 4 PM), at which point you need to wait, what 4 hours to see if you can get onto the next QF flight? I don't know the extent to which AFP and ABF patrol the international terminal, but hanging around for a couple extra hours is unlikely to raise eyebrows. And if you are unsuccessful and have to head back land side, you could always tell the ABF officer, "look I tried to get on the next QF flight, and I wasn't successful," I hardly doubt they're going to penalize you for making good on your intent to fly out that day. (Contrast this with people who abuse boarding passes to access First class lounges with no intention of flying).

Doable in theory right now but only theory. QF25 is perpetually much fuller than QF59. Also this route is about to get rescheduled (in QF's IASC application for VA's HND slot they're changing their schedules and SYD will go back to single daily to HND).

I'd rather push QF to get you on NH's evening service if they can't get you onto QF25.

Also similarly with a lot of the other, you can try to push QF to get you on alternative carriers. Like SQ to SIN.

 

[CaptJCool]

They also had mystery flights. Similar to standby but deeply discounted nominal fare. You would rock up to the airport before the appointed time (8am?) and they would put you on the first plane to anywhere that had a spare seat with a guarantee they would get you back same day with x hours for you to enjoy at the destination. For example you could rock up at ADL and end up variously in ASP, OOL, MEL, SYD, DWN etc etc for the day and be home in your own bed for a fraction of the usual cost. People would often buy mystery flights as birthday presents etc. IIRC they wouldn't offer PER because it was too hard to get you back same day.

AH Got the mystery flight to Perth definitely once, and yes, it was a long day but you could still be back by 11pm~!

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Doable in theory right now but only theory. QF25 is perpetually much fuller than QF59. Also this route is about to get rescheduled (in QF's IASC application for VA's HND slot they're changing their schedules and SYD will go back to single daily to HND).

Speaking of rescheduled, I see today's QF25 has been delayed by 15 hours and 20 minutes, highlighting that IRROPS do indeed occur on international flights:

In which case, one may very well want to get on an earlier flight.

I'd rather push QF to get you on NH's evening service if they can't get you onto QF25.

Also similarly with a lot of the other, you can try to push QF to get you on alternative carriers. Like SQ to SIN.

Which is fine, again supposing there is availability. One of the nice things about international routes is that you have more carriers to choose from and more routings to choose from too! But even then, flights can still be packed. The other challenge to keep in mind is people's nationalities may prohibit certain routings or carriers. For instance, as a Canadian there are certain flights I cannot take with some Asian airlines even if I'm just connecting at their hub to a third country (due to Visa requirements). The point I'm trying to make is depending on destination, your routing options can be limited and availability on those limited carriers can also be limited too.

To provide you with another example: suppose you are flying to Vancouver(VanCity) or San Francisco(SF) on Qantas (both offer nonstop service from Sydney on certain days). Both of these flights take off late in the evening hours (8:30 PM to 9:30 PM range) well past the time most flights to the Americas take off (which are predominantly in the morning hours). However, Qantas also has a 8:35 PM service to Honolulu. Now you could imagine a situation where you get to the airport at 5 PM to check in for your flight, go through emmigration and security only to find out at say 8 PM that the flight to SF/VanCity is cancelled. Qantas rebooks you on the non-stop United/Air Canada service the following day but you need to get into SF/VanCity the day before a critical meeting. Meanwhile the 8:35 PM Qantas service to Honolulu, the only remaining service to North America remains hasn't yet boarded (albeit it's fully booked), and you decide to head to that gate to see if you can get put on that flight. That's a potential example of how this approach could save your bacon. For those wondering, yes there are a decent number of flights between Honolulu and SF and Honolulu and VanCity, and since you would be arriving into Honolulu at 9:15 AM, you'd also have time to make connections that day. And yes, I know these are completely contrived examples, but often times during irregular operations, these types of scenarios can appear.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Steven Molnar]

I never did it but my understanding is you could buy a “standby” ticket and go to the airport and wait in a holding pen.

It might have been HLO. I don’t recall.

Yes, I remember you could buy 'mystery flight' tickets, so they could monetise any last minute empty seats.

 

[wrldtrvllr]

Earlier last month I got caught up in the ground halt at SYD when a QF flight decided to blow up an engine and scattered debris on the runway. I was actually waiting for a VA flight to BNE to connect to a separate overnight SQ flight. Could see cascading cancellations and delays and was trying to waitlist myself on any earlier departure lest my own flight got affected and I would misconnect. The swamped VA lounge couldn't really help so i used my own initiative and was moving from gate to gate in the hope someone didn't turn up, but nope no such luck. My own flight was late out and only a online chat with SQ to let them know I'm still on my way saved me from a disaster. (Yes I did online checkin but I didn't get any boarding passes as my final destination was Vietnam and they needed to check I had appropriate visa for entry). So can confirm VA has a similar "standby" arrangement - nothing official because that's only for staff - just try your luck at departure gate - some are willing, but some will just give you a straight out no (probably more to do with them being so stressed out all day thanks to the ground halt...)

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Earlier last month I got caught up in the ground halt at SYD when a QF flight decided to blow up an engine and scattered debris on the runway. I was actually waiting for a VA flight to BNE to connect to a separate overnight SQ flight. Could see cascading cancellations and delays and was trying to waitlist myself on any earlier departure lest my own flight got affected and I would misconnect. The swamped VA lounge couldn't really help so i used my own initiative and was moving from gate to gate in the hope someone didn't turn up, but nope no such luck.

This might be something where going to customer service outside of the lounge could have helped (indeed this was an option available to me which I didn't try). Then again, one must think that they would get better service from customer service in the lounge versus in the departure area.

My own flight was late out and only an online chat with SQ to let them know I'm still on my way saved me from a disaster. (Yes I did online checkin but I didn't get any boarding passes as my final destination was Vietnam and they needed to check I had appropriate visa for entry).

Those checks can be done at physical check-in with Virgin. And I say this from experience having flown Sydney to Zurich with the first sector on Virgin Australia down to Melbourne (before connecting onto EY flights to AUH then ZRH). You simply rock up to the Virgin check-in area and tell them your final destination, so in my case I said, "flying to Zurich today". The agent had a bewildered look on her face before talking to her supervisor who helped her with the process of check-in. Essentially all the airlines have a system called TIMATIC that will determine visa requirements based on passport and so it's not too difficult for an agent to determine whether you can board all flights in your booking. Yes, Virgin Australia is for all intents and purposes a domestic airline, however any airline that agrees to ticket with other global airlines assumes the responsibility that comes with being a global airline (this is how codeshares and interline agreements work as set out in joint venture agreements with airlines and under the law, most notably the Montreal Convention).

So can confirm VA has a similar "standby" arrangement - nothing official because that's only for staff - just try your luck at departure gate - some are willing, but some will just give you a straight out no (probably more to do with them being so stressed out all day thanks to the ground halt...)

What ended up happening here? Did your original flight eventually take off and you dealt with the mess in Brisbane? Also from your description it's unclear whether Virgin does have the same unofficial standby arrangement as Qantas. For instance, did you inquire before boarding started for the other flights (and thus before the computer processed boardings, potentially giving them the ability to move passengers around) or did they have the capability of assigning you to the flight once everyone has boarded (provided there is space available)? In my case with Qantas, they had me wait at the gate until everyone was boarded. I nearly had a seat on the next flight out to Melbourne had it not been for the two passengers who miraculously made their connection onto Melbourne (unsure where they were coming from).

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

This might be something where going to customer service outside of the lounge could have helped (indeed this was an option available to me which I didn't try). Then again, one must think that they would get better service from customer service in the lounge versus in the departure area.

Those checks can be done at physical check-in with Virgin. And I say this from experience having flown Sydney to Zurich with the first sector on Virgin Australia down to Melbourne (before connecting onto EY flights to AUH then ZRH). You simply rock up to the Virgin check-in area and tell them your final destination, so in my case I said, "flying to Zurich today". The agent had a bewildered look on her face before talking to her supervisor who helped her with the process of check-in. Essentially all the airlines have a system called TIMATIC that will determine visa requirements based on passport and so it's not too difficult for an agent to determine whether you can board all flights in your booking. Yes, Virgin Australia is for all intents and purposes a domestic airline, however any airline that agrees to ticket with other global airlines assumes the responsibility that comes with being a global airline (this is how codeshares and interline agreements work as set out in joint venture agreements with airlines and under the law, most notably the Montreal Convention).

What ended up happening here? Did your original flight eventually take off and you dealt with the mess in Brisbane? Also from your description it's unclear whether Virgin does have the same unofficial standby arrangement as Qantas. For instance, did you inquire before boarding started for the other flights (and thus before the computer processed boardings, potentially giving them the ability to move passengers around) or did they have the capability of assigning you to the flight once everyone has boarded (provided there is space available)? In my case with Qantas, they had me wait at the gate until everyone was boarded. I nearly had a seat on the next flight out to Melbourne had it not been for the two passengers who miraculously made their connection onto Melbourne (unsure where they were coming from).

-RooFlyer88

I think the difference is that SQ wanted to do their own checks on visa requirements for vietnam. VA might have been able to do them, but the responsibility ultimately lies with SQ.

VA does not have the same standby ability as QF. Once boarding starts, VA cannot accept any other lax for the flight. So even if it goes out with two spare seats, and you were impacted by a delayed of cancelled flight… nothing the gate agents will do.

You standby scenario only works if you have a no show confirmed, which is when doors close. Too late for VA.

Standby works quite differently in the USA, where you normally have a ticket for the flight, and are added to a standby list. I don’t believe either QF or VA will do that. You’d have to be ticketed once they discover a no show. CF the US where they just have to board you.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I think the difference is that SQ wanted to do their own checks on visa requirements for vietnam. VA might have been able to do them, but the responsibility ultimately lies with SQ.

That remains to be seen.

VA does not have the same standby ability as QF. Once boarding starts, VA cannot accept any other lax for the flight. So even if it goes out with two spare seats, and you were impacted by a delayed of cancelled flight… nothing the gate agents will do.

So in theory if they showed up at the gate before boarding opened and there was a seat available in theory Virgin could accommodate them. But the moment they announce boarding they are out of luck irrespective of if there are any seats left.

But I think that raises an important question related to these facilities which I don’t have the answer to: when does boarding start? An obvious answer is the boarding time listed at the gate. However, presumably agents would open the flight up for boarding in their system before that. At the same time if you encounter rolling delays then presumably the boarding can be after what is shown on the screen.

You standby scenario only works if you have a no show confirmed, which is when doors close. Too late for VA.

Well that brings up a question: how are no shows determined on QF and VA? I would imagine there is a specified time (e.g., if you don’t show up 10 mins prior to departure you’re deemed a no show). However, what about connecting passengers where it is clear they’ll misconnect. For instance suppose someone is flying LA to Melbourne (via SYD). Their flight from LA gets delayed and it’s obvious when they’re in the air they won’t make the connection. Now on some airlines they would see this potential misconnection, offload them from the MEL flight and rebook them onto another flight where they can make the connection (AC is infamous for this practice). In such an instance you could go from 0 inventory for a flight up to several seats becoming available as the system offloads those passengers.

Standby works quite differently in the USA, where you normally have a ticket for the flight, and are added to a standby list. I don’t believe either QF or VA will do that. You’d have to be ticketed once they discover a no show. CF the US where they just have to board you.

You mean ticketed for that particular flight or simply hold a ticket for that destination? In my case I held a ticket for MEL but the flight I was on was cancelled. On the second flight I tried the agent was able to move me onto that flight.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That remains to be seen.

So in theory if they showed up at the gate before boarding opened and there was a seat available in theory Virgin could accommodate them. But the moment they announce boarding they are out of luck irrespective of if there are any seats left.

But I think that raises an important question related to these facilities which I don’t have the answer to: when does boarding start? An obvious answer is the boarding time listed at the gate. However, presumably agents would open the flight up for boarding in their system before that. At the same time if you encounter rolling delays then presumably the boarding can be after what is shown on the screen.

Well that brings up a question: how are no shows determined on QF and VA? I would imagine there is a specified time (e.g., if you don’t show up 10 mins prior to departure you’re deemed a no show). However, what about connecting passengers where it is clear they’ll misconnect. For instance suppose someone is flying LA to Melbourne (via SYD). Their flight from LA gets delayed and it’s obvious when they’re in the air they won’t make the connection. Now on some airlines they would see this potential misconnection, offload them from the MEL flight and rebook them onto another flight where they can make the connection (AC is infamous for this practice). In such an instance you could go from 0 inventory for a flight up to several seats becoming available as the system offloads those passengers.

You mean ticketed for that particular flight or simply hold a ticket for that destination? In my case I held a ticket for MEL but the flight I was on was cancelled. On the second flight I tried the agent was able to move me onto that flight.

-RooFlyer88

Boarding starts when the gate agent says ‘we are now ready for boarding’. On VA that also means, from that time, they cannot add you to the flight, even if there are seats available.

No shows are when boarding closes, which is ten minutes prior to departure. Whatever time that is. Either the scheduled departure time if the flight is on time, or ten minutes before the revised departure time in the event of a delay.

But of course in the event of delay in Australia, the revised departure time isn’t set in stone… they will try and get the plane away as soon as possible.

Connecting pax are different, the airline handles that. If they know three pax are arriving on a late inbound, they will advise the gate. Everyone else should be the there and on board 10 mins prior. Pax A, B and C might be flagged as running from their connection. But that doesn’t mean pax D still gets to board if they are late because they were in the bar drinking. It depends where they are in terms of offloading the bag for pax D.

In the USA you generally have a boarding pass for a flight, and when you turn up you see your name in the standby list. I’ve been caught in irrops and placed in standby, but the agent had to add me to the flight, oversell the flight, so that i could be in that standby list.

You example of just sitting and waiting is slightly different.There’s no formal list. But if a seat appears, the agent will then have to ticket you and board you. If there was a formal list, presumably status would come into play. So you might be hanging around for 30 mins, but a P1 would get priority even if turning up 10 mins after you.

 

[CaptJCool]

There ought to be scope to “add PAX” if there’s 10% plus unsold seats as the flight is boarding

Of course, there’s a process of
Checkin
Off loading (bags in the hold especially create a time challenge to locate them. On the Airbus they’re on one of several crates loaded by forklift so if the last crate on it’s less time to locate and remove
With the Boeing bag by bag loading that’s another time challenge to locate one amongst hundreds)

Boarding
Then slow coaches and no shows and rushed connections and etc

Fly forwards
Fly backwards for those who missed an earlier connection or the flight was cancelled

I note in the QF App there has been these





r

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Boarding starts when the gate agent says ‘we are now ready for boarding’. On VA that also means, from that time, they cannot add you to the flight, even if there are seats available.

I understand that the boarding process from the perspective of passengers starts at the announcement but I’m wondering if the gate agent might actually prepare the flight for boarding in the DCS perhaps 10 or 15 minutes prior to boarding being called (at which point presumably on VA they couldn’t move anyone over to that flight). For instance on PanAm this occurred 35 minutes prior to boarding being called:

No shows are when boarding closes, which is ten minutes prior to departure. Whatever time that is. Either the scheduled departure time if the flight is on time, or ten minutes before the revised departure time in the event of a delay.

Is that true for both Qantas and Virgin? What about QFi versus domestic?

Connecting pax are different, the airline handles that. If they know three pax are arriving on a late inbound, they will advise the gate. Everyone else should be the there and on board 10 mins prior. Pax A, B and C might be flagged as running from their connection. But that doesn’t mean pax D still gets to board if they are late because they were in the bar drinking. It depends where they are in terms of offloading the bag for pax D.

So Qantas has no system to boot off a passenger that clearly won’t be making their connecting flight and instead that decision is left to the gate agent. Do they make that decision prior to boarding being called?

You example of just sitting and waiting is slightly different.There’s no formal list. But if a seat appears, the agent will then have to ticket you and board you. If there was a formal list, presumably status would come into play. So you might be hanging around for 30 mins, but a P1 would get priority even if turning up 10 mins after you.

to be honest I don’t mind this system since it allows affected pax to hold a confirmed seat whilst at the same time providing service recovery to those 1% that know about the hidden standby rather than basing it on something meaningless like status or fare class!

 

[elanshin]

Is that true for both Qantas and Virgin? What about QFi versus domestic?

Int'l will be different most of the time. Also judging by my call history spam (I missed a flight by oversleeping), QF tried until about 5mins before the flight to find out where I was. Given that was flight #1 for the day the 6am SYD-MEL, they probably called it off at 5:55.

So Qantas has no system to boot off a passenger that clearly won’t be making their connecting flight and instead that decision is left to the gate agent. Do they make that decision prior to boarding being called?

I think he means the opposite, the gate agent isn't making this call, but someone managing delays and such is making the call. There are all sorts of reasons why QF will DELAY a departure to accommodate late pax. Heck I sat at SYD once until 10:30pm on the 10pm last flight when a whole hoard of people boarded.

Alternatively, if you land at SYD 8am and connecting to MEL and now have your flight landing at 9am, QF is going to be rebooking you whilst you're in the air.

to be honest I don’t mind this system since it allows affected pax to hold a confirmed seat whilst at the same time providing service recovery to those 1% that know about the hidden standby rather than basing it on something meaningless like status or fare class!

You also have to consider it from a company policy pov. If you give everyone an official policy, then in the event of delays youll have heaps of people hanging around and shuffling from gate to gate. Some people would rather just be told to go home and come back at <insert new time> than bounce around from gate to gate with a maybe.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Int'l will be different most of the time. Also judging by my call history spam (I missed a flight by oversleeping), QF tried until about 5mins before the flight to find out where I was. Given that was flight #1 for the day the 6am SYD-MEL, they probably called it off at 5:55.

This is why I avoid morning flights.

I think he means the opposite, the gate agent isn't making this call, but someone managing delays and such is making the call. There are all sorts of reasons why QF will DELAY a departure to accommodate late pax. Heck I sat at SYD once until 10:30pm on the 10pm last flight when a whole hoard of people boarded.

Either way, what is unclear is what happens to the seat inventory when the airline cancels out a connecting passenger as they are unlikely to make their connection. For instance, would the inventory go up by the number of pax deemed unable to connect? Also when a flight goes under airport and gate control how does that impact the reporting of inventory numbers? The reason I ask, is that I presume that if you had positive inventory in Y then in theory you can walk up to an agent at the airport and get moved over to that flight should you have been on an earlier that was cancelled. If on the other hand the inventory remains zeroed out then that would suggest that roaming by the gate is appropriate.

Alternatively, if you land at SYD 8am and connecting to MEL and now have your flight landing at 9am, QF is going to be rebooking you whilst you're in the air.

That seems consistent to how other airlines do it.

You also have to consider it from a company policy pov. If you give everyone an official policy, then in the event of delays youll have heaps of people hanging around and shuffling from gate to gate. Some people would rather just be told to go home and come back at <insert new time> than bounce around from gate to gate with a maybe.

Oh that I understand completely. Having 300 pax huddled by a gate when there might be one or two seats available does no favours to the passengers or the gate agent. With that being said, sometimes you have a need to get out, and having that option in the back of your pocket can be useful.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I understand that the boarding process from the perspective of passengers starts at the announcement but I’m wondering if the gate agent might actually prepare the flight for boarding in the DCS perhaps 10 or 15 minutes prior to boarding being called (at which point presumably on VA they couldn’t move anyone over to that flight). For instance on PanAm this occurred 35 minutes prior to boarding being called:

Is that true for both Qantas and Virgin? What about QFi versus domestic?

So Qantas has no system to boot off a passenger that clearly won’t be making their connecting flight and instead that decision is left to the gate agent. Do they make that decision prior to boarding being called?

to be honest I don’t mind this system since it allows affected pax to hold a confirmed seat whilst at the same time providing service recovery to those 1% that know about the hidden standby rather than basing it on something meaningless like status or fare class!

Once boarding starts, VA is unable to add a passenger.

Before that time, if there are seats, you can fly forward, or be reaccommodated if your earlier flights was delayed or cancelled.

On Virgin, once they open those doors, that’s it. You can’t get on.

On qantas, you can.

If an airline knows 10 pax won’t make a flight, they will be offloaded. This usually happens well before the deadline. Those seats will then go into inventory, or to staff who are waiting on their own standby list. elanshin is on the money here. It’s not a gate agent randomly deciding, it will be the back office monitoring pax movements. For international, it’s pretty common for a passenger to be offloaded as soon as they look like they will breach MCT.

There’s plenty of reports of pax on a late inbound who have raced to their gate only to find they were offloaded a long time before. EK does this in Dubai. AY did this to a friend connecting to QF in SIN.