Qantas announces A380 refurbishments

[RichardMEL]

Comment on F:

Paid F travel around the world is not huge. Many airlines have/are eliminating F from many aircraft types, or all together. Consider the A350's out there.. off the top of my head I can't think of any carriers putting a F into those a/c, and very few put it in the 787 (BA comes to mind as one on the -9).... and these a/c, along with the 777X's are the future of long haul travel. SQ are reducing the number of F on their 380's(when they move it to the upper deck), EK are rumoured to with their new product etc, and I think QR and EY might only keep F on their 380's.

The writing has been on the wall for quite awhile. Consider those with the $$$ for multiple paid F trips would probably be moving to cheaper private jets, netjets (that sort of concept) and the like and are still a relatively smaller segment of the overall flying public. I reckon most flag carriers like your QF's and BA's of this world, along with the ME3 keep a F product for as much national pride and an amount of feeling they MUST offer it for various reasons, not all of them economic for the airline.

Sure, your celebs and sports superstars and the like do still fly commercial F of course, and your higher end CEO's and the like, but I suspect paid F travel for international long haul is shrinking overall... and carriers are responding to, as Joyce noted, far more demand for J and Y+ products.

So really, it's not a massive surprise QF are not putting much into the F product vs new J suites on the 380 refresh. It's disappointing absolutely, but hardly surprising. Remember, this is QF who have basically made their F catering a "J+" catering with only a couple of extra touches like the caviar, and the really nice French bubbles and so on)... so this fits how they have treated F for years now.

And well, at the end of the day for those of us in paid J or looking for reward seats, keeping a 14F cabin is still an advantage to those flying to LAX/DFW/LHR or wherever QF wish to deply that product, and of course for the Plat's lucky enough on the shorter routes get to sit in there as a J service. Still beats flying Y!

 

[GoldCanyon340]

Yes we'll pay for EK F but not interested in paid QF F. Badly needs upgrades, doors, non silly swivel seat, better bathrooms, dramatically better tv and entertainment, notwithstanding a proper F drinks menu.

I'm in the paid EK F camp mostly these days. EK food isn't amazing and is just the J menu with added bling (caviar etc.). But I love the wine and spirits selection, the closed door suite and the shower. Got a solid 8 hours of sleep on my recent SYD-DXB and great to refresh with a shower in those cavernous bathrooms with heated floors. The QF F suites are private of course in that once you swivel you can't see any other pax and at least they have a buddy seat, although I'm sure EK will have too in its next gen F.

For QF I'd like to see dine on demand in J and a true degustation menu in F.

 

[ozziflyer]

Sometimes you just need to maintain a little perspective.

The future is efficient long hauling in an more efficient aircraft size i.e 787 v A380.

In a highly capital intensive and low margin business, ensuring the business continued so I could continue to utilise my frequent flyer perks is more important to me than the 1%ers.
You may compare it to other airlines such as Emirates or Singapore but at the end of the day they aren't purely commercial operations so have the added advantage of less margin pressure/investor relations to worry about.

There are some assuming cost neutral changes they could make to J/F but the reality is they much rather buy back shares and pay a dividend to keep shareholders happy than direct it all to their FFers

 

[Bilton]

I suspect paid F travel for international long haul is shrinking overall... and carriers are responding to, as Joyce noted, far more demand for J and Y+ products!

I concur.

Overall, the demand for J is already large and it's growing, while the demand for F is low and it's falling, so there is nothing surprising here..

 

[codash1099]

Well yes, it will boost Asia service, and I suppose could also pinch hit if there's a 787 issue, though that's unlikely as it's a pretty mature airframe now.

Just a bit disappointing to have to wait for so long, and of course the game of "new or old config 380?" will begin for fun times over a couple of years (just like with the 332's)

Timing could well be controlled by availability of new seats. I would guess that the manufacturers would be pretty much under the pump with supplying new aircraft these days and refurbs would be down the priority list.

 

[Mattg]

To be honest, I'm actually surprised that they maintained the number of F seats. Given some of the things Qantas has said and done in the past, I was fully expecting them to announce that the F cabin would be reduced to 8 seats, or removed altogether. :!:

 

[basso]

Timing could well be controlled by availability of new seats. I would guess that the manufacturers would be pretty much under the pump with supplying new aircraft these days and refurbs would be down the priority list.

I have heard something similar. The delivery timelines on new seats are over a year after ordering at the moment.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Yes we'll pay for EK F but not interested in paid QF F. Badly needs upgrades, doors, non silly swivel seat, better bathrooms, dramatically better tv and entertainment, notwithstanding a proper F drinks menu.

pretty much sums it up - although I don't mind the swivel seat, I prefer the Emirate and SQ setup. The rest of it Qantas really isn't in the game (and doesn't want to be imho).

 

[Daver6]

Perhaps with F, QF are just maintaining them in the interim. Longer term, perhaps when they have direct SYD - LHR or wherever on some new aircraft, a new F might be introduced then?

I have to say I found the announcements really silly. One telling us that they will start working on an improvement in two years time and the other that they plan to fly somewhere on an aircraft that isn't just not yet built, isn't even on the cards for Airbus or Boeing.

 

[kermatu]

Perhaps with F, QF are just maintaining them in the interim. Longer term, perhaps when they have direct SYD - LHR or wherever on some new aircraft, a new F might be introduced then?

I have to say I found the announcements really silly. One telling us that they will start working on an improvement in two years time and the other that they plan to fly somewhere on an aircraft that isn't just not yet built, isn't even on the cards for Airbus or Boeing.

But the latter got a few 'headlines' in international press / websites. Maybe that's all they were after.

 

[Daver6]

But the latter got a few 'headlines' in international press / websites. Maybe that's all they were after.

So if they're in the business of making outrageous claims to get a few headlines, perhaps they should run the company through Twitter...just like Trump :shock:

 

[pauly7]

So if they're in the business of making outrageous claims to get a few headlines, perhaps they should run the company through Twitter...just like Trump :shock:

I know your post was in jest but I think is fairly obvious they did it to put more pressure on Boeing and Airbus and also rally other airlines to demand the same thereby pushing their commercial agenda.

 

[moa999]

Perhaps with F, QF are just maintaining them in the interim. Longer term, perhaps when they have direct SYD - LHR or wherever on some new aircraft, a new F might be introduced then?
.

Given these aircraft would likely be out of service for 6-8wks for a check and reconfig, makes more sense to do it all at once.

I suspect once the move to the upper deck and removal of stairs was ruled out, then there weren't many other products available for F on the lower deck.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Comment on F:

Paid F travel around the world is not huge. Many airlines have/are eliminating F from many aircraft types, or all together. Consider the A350's out there.. off the top of my head I can't think of any carriers putting a F into those a/c, and very few put it in the 787 (BA comes to mind as one on the -9).... and these a/c, along with the 777X's are the future of long haul travel. SQ are reducing the number of F on their 380's(when they move it to the upper deck), EK are rumoured to with their new product etc, and I think QR and EY might only keep F on their 380's.

The writing has been on the wall for quite awhile. Consider those with the $$$ for multiple paid F trips would probably be moving to cheaper private jets, netjets (that sort of concept) and the like and are still a relatively smaller segment of the overall flying public. I reckon most flag carriers like your QF's and BA's of this world, along with the ME3 keep a F product for as much national pride and an amount of feeling they MUST offer it for various reasons, not all of them economic for the airline.

Sure, your celebs and sports superstars and the like do still fly commercial F of course, and your higher end CEO's and the like, but I suspect paid F travel for international long haul is shrinking overall... and carriers are responding to, as Joyce noted, far more demand for J and Y+ products.

So really, it's not a massive surprise QF are not putting much into the F product vs new J suites on the 380 refresh. It's disappointing absolutely, but hardly surprising. Remember, this is QF who have basically made their F catering a "J+" catering with only a couple of extra touches like the caviar, and the really nice French bubbles and so on)... so this fits how they have treated F for years now.

And well, at the end of the day for those of us in paid J or looking for reward seats, keeping a 14F cabin is still an advantage to those flying to LAX/DFW/LHR or wherever QF wish to deply that product, and of course for the Plat's lucky enough on the shorter routes get to sit in there as a J service. Still beats flying Y!

something like netjets is going to cost 500,000 upfront for a small share, plus another 100k per year at least. I can do a lot of F flying for that.

i think Qantas have made the right business decision by concentrating on J and dumbing down F, although I find it disappointing as I would like to have stayed with Qantas - I am just incorrigibly sentimental.

I think there is far too much F capacity and I am glad to see the airlines reducing the number of seats. That might make it more expensive longterm, but I would rather that than the quality being reduced, as has happened with Qantas.

We are not wealthy (just extravagant) and don't mx in a wealthy set, but I know quite a few peple who fly F regularly, but just not with Qantas. They are like us, retired, a reasonable income stream and happy to spend the extra money, so I don't think it is just rock stars and CEOs.

 

[Isochronous]

I'm another one disappointed with the lack of F investment.

 

[TheRealTMA]

I'm another one disappointed with the lack of F investment.

Shirley? You don't pay your own way to F seats?

 

[RichardMEL]

re "dumbing down of F" - as I posted earlier, QF have done this for years.. with really a J+ soft product.

I suspect they have stuck with 14F for a number of reasons.

1. The suite is just basically being refreshed, no new seats or hard product per se - I mean the biggest "selling point" of this is a larger screen.. whoopeee... so given that they can keep the number as is if all they are going to do is make a few cosmetic changes
2. If they were to reduce F seating it would annoy the upgraders (and the NRSA staff pax who slink into F )
3. SQ has moved F to the upper deck from zone A on the lower. QF aren't. I reckon QF probably decided to just keep Zone A as the F zone as there didn't seem to be anything to be gained to move F upstairs, because Zone A is probably a lil small for the W seats at the back of J.
4. Really obviously the focus is not on F. Obvious for quite some time. They can still provide it to LHR and LAX on at least one service and claim to offer their most premium product on these legacy routes, when reality will see a larger and larger proportion of longer haul flights with J as the top cabin on the 744's and, as time goes on, the 787 and possibly further on 777X/A350/more 787's.

Keeping F more or less as it is is the easiest, most cost effective solution for QF in a number of ways, and keeps some punters happy to have chances to get into that product.

We can be sure that all new aircraft types QF take on will not have an F cabin going forward. Let's enjoy it while it lasts

(oh and to those with the ability to enjoy paid EK/SQ/EY/etc F - you're very lucky to have these opportunities - and I have done so on rare occasion myself, but not everyone does )

 

[levelnine]

4. Really obviously the focus is not on F. Obvious for quite some time. They can still provide it to LHR and LAX on at least one service and claim to offer their most premium product on these legacy routes, when reality will see a larger and larger proportion of longer haul flights with J as the top cabin on the 744's and, as time goes on, the 787 and possibly further on 777X/A350/more 787's.

You raise an interesting point. This could possibly be the last Qantas F cabin ever. A very real possibility: In 10 years time when the A380s are due for retirement, Qantas decides to drop F and the QF lounges in SYD and MEL are shuttered forever and the HKG/SIN/BNE combined lounge becomes the only game in town. Indeed, as I've speculated before, the MEL F lounge may not even last that long as the A380 routes out of MEL are gradually replaced with 787s.

 

[mviy]

Another possibility is that QF offers some F seats on flights direct non-stop to LHR bringing F seats back to QF9 as early as 2022 (though probably years later).

 

[Himeno]

You raise an interesting point. This could possibly be the last Qantas F cabin ever. A very real possibility: In 10 years time when the A380s are due for retirement, Qantas decides to drop F and the QF lounges in SYD and MEL are shuttered forever and the HKG/SIN/BNE combined lounge becomes the only game in town. Indeed, as I've speculated before, the MEL F lounge may not even last that long as the A380 routes out of MEL are gradually replaced with 787s.

Or another just as real possibility. The next gen aircraft selected to replace the 744ERs and A380s in the mid-late 2020s will have a small F cabin of 4-8 seats.