Qantas Domestic Business Lounge - oneworld Emerald access Discussion

[dfcatch]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Wow - what a controversial thread - after following for a few days, simply can't resist throwing some more comments in

1/ The OP's issue is clear-cut - so let's digress....

2/ IMHO QF isn't flouting any OW rules.

If you want lounge access with QF (and you have no status) - you purchase QP membership. If you want lounge access with AA - you purchase AC membership. As a QP member you have reciprocal lounge rights with AA and BA (a benefit for those who fork out cash for a lounge membership - and you SHOULD expect to be able to use lounges when you travel internationally).


3/ For those with status - OW provides alliance-wide lounge access as a status benefit.
The primary benefit of obtaining OWS is alliance-wide access to "business lounges". Let's not get hung-up on the word "business", each airline has a different name for its lounges. The bottom line is that OWS gives you lounge access as a status benefit without having to purchase a membership.

OWE get the ADDITIONAL benefit of having access to PREMIUM lounges (whatever they may be called).

OWS is simply lounge-access in place of a lounge membership.
OWE is the premium offering for top-elites.

At International terminals QF has a J lounge for QP members and OWS (Qantas Club aka International Business Lounge), and it has First Lounges for OWE.

At Domestic terminals QF has a "standard" lounge for QP and OWS, and it has a "premium" lounge in selected ports for OWE. (The lounge name is not the slightest bit important).

AA has AC's for OWS, and it has FL's for OWE.

Qantas' obligations to OW is to provide OWS with lounge access, and to provide OWE with premium lounge access - it is doing this - I don't see the problem.

4/ What astounds me is that some posters are suggesting tightening access, (aka restricting benefits). Considering we all regularly lambast QF for the continual erosion of benefits - why on earth would you advocate the same evil..??..??

5/ The fact that US-based airlines restrict lounge access to their own elites (or all elites in *A's case) is not necessarily a good thing and I think QF gold/LTG members would throw a massive hissy fit if QF instituted a similar policy. Imagine ONLY QP members having lounge access unless travelling OS!!!)


6/ QF Domestic Business Lounges are a fairly recent addition to the stable for the benefit of premium cabin pax, and OWE's - it should be welcomed, not criticised (as with all improvements and additions).

Sorry for the long post - but as a recent WP, but longtime QP member, I am surprised by some of the views here.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Sorry for the long post - but as a recent WP, but longtime QP member, I am surprised by some of the views here.

I'm speculating, but I suspect it may have something to do with people crediting to AA, and being AA Plat (OWS), and then finding that they don't have access to the QF Business Lounge.

There was a lot of debate on this back when QF announced the business lounges, and we all speculated as to the entry criteria. From memory, AA Plats wanted in, but turned out that they (and other OWS) aren't allowed in.

 

[Dave Noble]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

I'm not talking about across the board Sapphire restrictions, I agree that Qantas lost the right to restrict access to any of its "Business Lounges" to other airlines' Sapphire elites when it signed up to oneworld, except maybe AA's. (And QF needs to remedy this situation OR accept their obligations to partner elites; there are two useful ideas presented already in this thread.)

I agree that any carrier can provide benefits and restrictions to their own members, since that is nothing to do with oneworld, but a BA Silver member ( using BA OWS to avoid discussing the 'domestic' issue) is entitled to access to business lounges across the OW network, however QF refuses to allow it. I agree that it needs to be remedied in some manner

I believe that , unless there was a specific reason why they decided to decline admission specifically to the OP to the BA lounge, that the OP should have been allowed in. I also believe that ALL airlines should be expected to comply with the OW benefits and QF is no exception. I do think that the OPs experience is an exception whilst QF acts systematically to ignore the obligations

If QF refuses to honour its obligations, how can it have any credibility if complaining to another carrier for not honouring the same obligation

I do also think that in the OP's case, that complaining to QF will not actually serve any real purpose since it was a BA lounge ; if wanting to press the issue I would be contacting BA customer relations rather than QF customer care, since they are more in a position to investigate etc. I have found BA customer relations much better at dealing with issues than Qantas customer care.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

I agree that any carrier can provide benefits and restrictions to their own members, since that is nothing to do with oneworld, but a BA Silver member ( using BA OWS to avoid discussing the 'domestic' issue) is entitled to access to business lounges across the OW network, however QF refuses to allow it. I agree that it needs to be remedied in some manner

Sorry Dave, I don't agree with you here. to me you are hung up on the word "business"

Easiest way is this: before the DOM Business lounge there was only the QP. of which we all had access too.

Now QF have a "business class" lounge for Business class pax as well as OWE and QF Plats.

Would you be complaining if they called it the "Premium Lounge" I note on the One World website it doesn't mention Business lounges, rather Lounges only.


Wouldn't you class the QP as a business lounge?

 

[dfcatch]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

I'm speculating, but I suspect it may have something to do with people crediting to AA, and being AA Plat (OWS), and then finding that they don't have access to the QF Business Lounge.

There was a lot of debate on this back when QF announced the business lounges, and we all speculated as to the entry criteria. From memory, AA Plats wanted in, but turned out that they (and other OWS) aren't allowed in.

I understand your point that there may be history - but as a OWS, my expectation is that I have lounge access across the alliance without having to purchase a lounge membership. I don't expect to have access to "premium lounges" (regardless of their name). Within the QF program - everyone understands that the benefits of SG (including check-in, extra baggage, priority baggage etc) are essentially the same as QP. The lounge access expectation is no different.

As a OWE, my expectation is to be able to access "premium lounges" as well as standard lounges.

It all comes down to expectations - IMHO I don't see the problem, and I'm not getting too hung-up on names.

 

[Dave Noble]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Would you be complaining if they called it the "Premium Lounge" I note on the One World website it doesn't mention Business lounges, rather Lounges only.

From the OW website

Sapphire: When travelling on any oneworld member airline, any customer with Sapphire tier status is welcome (with one guest travelling on a flight operated and marketed by a oneworld airline) at any oneworld airlines' pre-flight Business Class and frequent flyer lounges regardless of class of travel

Whlst it is a business class lounge, then it would seem to be specifically covered

 

[dfcatch]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

From the OW website



Whlst it is a business class lounge, then it would seem to be specifically covered

I've gotta agree with some of the others here - I'm not hung-up on the name of the" QF Domestic Business Class Lounge".

Your problem would be resolved if QF renamed the lounge, OR restricted access such as BA's Concorde Room.

BUT - I'm not in favour of restricting benefits, and besides - IMO QF IS meeting OW obligations by providing OWS's with QP access which again, IMO, IS a business lounge.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

From the OW website
Whlst it is a business class lounge, then it would seem to be specifically covered

It reads to me as either by saying AND. As long as you have access to a lounge.

 

[medhead]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Except that that would be a breach of OW entitlements. Why is it seemingly ok to come up with ways to restrict entitled access to QF lounges whilst castigating BA for not allowing someone in

Well, to take a page from Arguing by Dave Noble (i.e. basing it on the way and style that you have argued before), fundamentally all the talk about why QF seemingly flout the ow rules is not relevant to this thread and the OP.

To put it simply, the OP and the premise of this thread is that the oneworld rules state that the OP was fully entitled to enter the BA T5 GF, but instead they were removed (that's right - not refused but admitted and then removed). And the answer we can all agree on - as it would seem - is that the OP should have been granted access as per the ow rules.

I wanted to just chime in on this point to say that the discussion of AA Qf lounge access has nothing to do with the OP. It is a irrelevance. Other than that I have nothing to add because I know nothing about AA, not that knowing nothing generally stops me from sprouting forth; But it is on this occassion.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

I understand your point that there may be history - but as a OWS, my expectation is that I have lounge access across the alliance without having to purchase a lounge membership. I don't expect to have access to "premium lounges" (regardless of their name). Within the QF program - everyone understands that the benefits of SG (including check-in, extra baggage, priority baggage etc) are essentially the same as QP. The lounge access expectation is no different.

As a OWE, my expectation is to be able to access "premium lounges" as well as standard lounges.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you.

 

[dk4]

status based lounge access on oneworld

@dfcatch & @nlagalle – it’s more than just about “what’s in a name?” it’s a fundamental element of the 1W market proposition, and part of what 1W uses to delineate itself from other global airline alliances.

As you both know 1W offers three tiers of benefits, but for the sake of this discussion we will leave aside Ruby (QFF Silver) as there is no lounge benefit at this level.


The crux of the 1W sapphire offer is - that when you travel 1W you will be treated to many of the SAME on-the-ground services that the airline bestows on its "business class" passengers. A nice simple offer, which means that even when flying on a carrier on the far flung side of the world, you know what to expect –

• Use of the same check-in counter as a business class passenger, when in a lower class
• Use of the same lounge as a business class passenger (or local frequent fliers’ club, if the airline doesn’t provide for a separate business class lounge)
• Priority Boarding
• …etc

The crux of the 1W emerald offer is - that when you travel 1W you will be treated to many of the SAME on-the-ground services as those passengers travelling first class. Again, nice and simple –

• Use of the same check-in as a first class passenger
• Use of the same lounge as a first class passenger (as well as any business class or frequent fliers’ club lounge)
• Priority Boarding
• …etc

(I think that we have reached the end of discussing domestic AAdvantage PLT anomalies, so I will use Dave Nobel’s BA EC Silver example.)

On the ground the BA EC Silver (1W sapphire) customer, flying economy, should be able to access the same amenities as a person travelling Business Class. i.e. Qantas Domestic Business Class lounges when on QF.

Likewise, on the ground a QF FF Platinum (1W emerald), flying economy or business, should be able to access the same amenities as a person travelling First Class. i.e. British Airways First Class lounges when flying BA.

AS AN ASIDE - I do agree that “names” should not get in the way of this access, so I also believe that BA should open up the “Concorde Room” to all 1W emeralds, not just those holding a first class ticket, even if they themselves continue to disallow access to BA EC Golds.

(This system is fundamentally different to how the vast Star Alliance operates, and is probably one of the key 1W advantages over the vastness of the Star Alliance network, for frequent business travellers. But the further the 1W airlines drift apart on this KISS approach, the more they (not only) reduce the value of this advantage but also antagonise their key customer bases.)

Getting back to the OP’s situation, and I am looking forward to the next post, post-contacting QFF during business hours, I think we are all trying to understand why the eviction took place? If it is, as has been alluded, that perhaps it was due to “appearance” – then this is going to be a significant problem moving forward for QF: as an ever growing proportion of their frequent travellers (and most profitable customers) will be “miners”, who are unlikely to dress the same way as BA’s “toffs”.

But IMO QF should expect BA to treat its emerald “miners” the same way BA treats their first class “toffs”. This is a matter QF needs to deal with proactively.

 

[anat0l]

Re: status based lounge access on oneworld

AS AN ASIDE - I do agree that “names” should not get in the way of this access, so I also believe that BA should open up the “Concorde Room” to all 1W emeralds, not just those holding a first class ticket, even if they themselves continue to disallow access to BA EC Golds.

To continue this aside (so this is now OT):

It gets funnier than that. BA CCR access is only granted if you are flying BA F. That is, if you are flying another oneworld carrier's F, no access for you!

Under the oneworld rules, if you are flying F of a oneworld carrier, you are entitled to use any F lounges.

 

[straitman]

Re: status based lounge access on oneworld

To continue this aside (so this is now OT):

Maybe a moderator should break the new OW/QF/AA lounge issue to a new thread so that it can remain on its topic and this thread can get back on topic.

 

[ajw373]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

I understand your point that there may be history - but as a OWS, my expectation is that I have lounge access across the alliance without having to purchase a lounge membership. I don't expect to have access to "premium lounges" (regardless of their name). Within the QF program - everyone understands that the benefits of SG (including check-in, extra baggage, priority baggage etc) are essentially the same as QP. The lounge access expectation is no different.

As a OWE, my expectation is to be able to access "premium lounges" as well as standard lounges.

It all comes down to expectations - IMHO I don't see the problem, and I'm not getting too hung-up on names.

As a OWS you still have access to what for most airlines would be called the business class lounge, but in Qantas talk the The Qantas Club. OWE and passengers actually flying business have access to this new lounge. What is the problem with that?

If as Dave suggests OWS be allowed in because it is called a Business lounge then Qantas may as well not have the bloody thing at all and go back to a single domestic lounge as it is pointless.

 

[ajw373]

Re: status based lounge access on oneworld

@dfcatch & @nlagalle – it’s more than just about “what’s in a name?” it’s a fundamental element of the 1W market proposition, and part of what 1W uses to delineate itself from other global airline alliances.

As you both know 1W offers three tiers of benefits, but for the sake of this discussion we will leave aside Ruby (QFF Silver) as there is no lounge benefit at this level.




The crux of the 1W sapphire offer is - that when you travel 1W you will be treated to many of the SAME on-the-ground services that the airline bestows on its "business class" passengers. A nice simple offer, which means that even when flying on a carrier on the far flung side of the world, you know what to expect –

• Use of the same check-in counter as a business class passenger, when in a lower class
• Use of the same lounge as a business class passenger (or local frequent fliers’ club, if the airline doesn’t provide for a separate business class lounge)
• Priority Boarding
• …etc

The crux of the 1W emerald offer is - that when you travel 1W you will be treated to many of the SAME on-the-ground services as those passengers travelling first class. Again, nice and simple –

• Use of the same check-in as a first class passenger
• Use of the same lounge as a first class passenger (as well as any business class or frequent fliers’ club lounge)
• Priority Boarding
• …etc

(I think that we have reached the end of discussing domestic AAdvantage PLT anomalies, so I will use Dave Nobel’s BA EC Silver example.)

On the ground the BA EC Silver (1W sapphire) customer, flying economy, should be able to access the same amenities as a person travelling Business Class. i.e. Qantas Domestic Business Class lounges when on QF.

Likewise, on the ground a QF FF Platinum (1W emerald), flying economy or business, should be able to access the same amenities as a person travelling First Class. i.e. British Airways First Class lounges when flying BA.

AS AN ASIDE - I do agree that “names” should not get in the way of this access, so I also believe that BA should open up the “Concorde Room” to all 1W emeralds, not just those holding a first class ticket, even if they themselves continue to disallow access to BA EC Golds.

(This system is fundamentally different to how the vast Star Alliance operates, and is probably one of the key 1W advantages over the vastness of the Star Alliance network, for frequent business travellers. But the further the 1W airlines drift apart on this KISS approach, the more they (not only) reduce the value of this advantage but also antagonise their key customer bases.)

Getting back to the OP’s situation, and I am looking forward to the next post, post-contacting QFF during business hours, I think we are all trying to understand why the eviction took place? If it is, as has been alluded, that perhaps it was due to “appearance” – then this is going to be a significant problem moving forward for QF: as an ever growing proportion of their frequent travellers (and most profitable customers) will be “miners”, who are unlikely to dress the same way as BA’s “toffs”.

But IMO QF should expect BA to treat its emerald “miners” the same way BA treats their first class “toffs”. This is a matter QF needs to deal with proactively.

All well and good, except clearly Qantas doesn't have first class domesticly, wheras AA does, though in reality it is business on most other airlines.

So look at it this way. Qantas domestic business lounge is a first class lounge, however as there is no domestic first, Qantas has choosen to upgrade access to allow one world passengers who are flying business, as well as all those others that would normally access a first class lounge, ie OWE.

The Qantas club is what would normally be the business class lounge and is open to OWS plus paid Qantas club.

PS Used the first class lounge at LHR T5 today, flying buisness on BA as Qantas platinum. No isses what so ever, except that the staff are as dumb as dog poop.

 

[ajw373]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Dave, out of interest do you consider it a breach of OW rules if an airline was to not offer a first class lounge? As a OWE I would feel ripped off and cheated if they didn't.

 

[Dave Noble]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Dave, out of interest do you consider it a breach of OW rules if an airline was to not offer a first class lounge? As a OWE I would feel ripped off and cheated if they didn't.

There is no requirement for there to be a 1st class lounge. Travel to UK in 1st class ( for example ) on AA from Dallas and there is no first class lounge option for example. Qantas doesn't offer 1st class lounges domestically , nor at some airports where they have no 1st class service ( such as HNL ). Outside of OW there are numerous places where there are no separate 1st and business lounges at ports

Given they (iirc) do not offer 1st class, I would be very surprised if AY, RJ and IB actually have 1st class lounges at all and would not feel ripped off if they do not have lounges for a class they do not offer

So look at it this way. Qantas domestic business lounge is a first class lounge, however as there is no domestic first

It isn't a 1st class lounge.

Dave

 

[moa999]

Re: status based lounge access on oneworld

The crux of the 1W sapphire offer is - that when you travel 1W you will be treated to many of the SAME on-the-ground services that the airline bestows on its "business class" passengers. A nice simple offer, which means that even when flying on a carrier on the far flung side of the world, you know what to expect –

• Use of the same check-in counter as a business class passenger, when in a lower class
• Use of the same lounge as a business class passenger (or local frequent fliers’ club, if the airline doesn’t provide for a separate business class lounge)
• Priority Boarding
• …etc

The crux of the 1W emerald offer is - that when you travel 1W you will be treated to many of the SAME on-the-ground services as those passengers travelling first class. Again, nice and simple –

• Use of the same check-in as a first class passenger
• Use of the same lounge as a first class passenger (as well as any business class or frequent fliers’ club lounge)
• Priority Boarding
• …etc

An interesting discussion. I think the main issues is the oneworld rules are designed predominately around International travel where there is availability of 3-classes (at least on some routes) by all oneworld members.

As for Qantas Domestic, I will say it again --
The Qantas Business Lounge is available to top-tier passengers by class of service (Business) and top-tier FF's (Qantas Plat and oneworld Emerald)
The Qantas Club is available to second-tier and FFs (Qantas Gold and oneworld Sapphire) and Qantas Club members.

 

[serfty]

Maybe a moderator should break the new OW/QF/AA lounge issue to a new thread so that it can remain on its topic and this thread can get back on topic.

I was going to do this yesterday, but had not the time. Now done!

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Re: status based lounge access on oneworld

An interesting discussion. I think the main issues is the oneworld rules are designed predominately around International travel where there is availability of 3-classes (at least on some routes) by all oneworld members.

Yep, OW alliance and tiers were set up well before whY+ can into existance. Nowdays there are flights with 4 classes.

This has turned into a very interesting thread!