Qantas Fleet Grounded 29/10

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Gillard has no blame here. She can be blamed for many things but not interfering prematurely into a private business is not one of them. Old Liberals are turning in their graves over at the mere suggestion that government should interfere in private enterprise. She's untouchable on this one. I'm starting to like the cut of her jib.

.....and it is worth remembering that government intervention/referral to FWA is not restricted to the Federal Government. State Liberal governments in Victoria or NSW could also have done it at any time. Now maybe those 2 governments are still in training wheels but nontheless, they could have intervened earlier if they had the kahunas.

They didn't hesitate to come to the assistance of the banks recently.....particularly Mac Bank. Also, same, but different, the NBN.....the only thing that's untouchable is their agreement with their bankers - the unions.
 
They didn't hesitate to come to the assistance of the banks recently.....particularly Mac Bank. Also, same, but different, the NBN.....the only thing that's untouchable is their agreement with their bankers - the unions.

The 'Bailout' that Australian banks received (The wholesale credit market guarantee and deposit guarantee) made the government a not insignificant amount of money.

The 'Bailout' by the elimination of naked short selling equities was because most other markets were imposing similar bans, and when you've got a lot of hedge funds with money they want to short banks with all going into a small market that causes issues.
 
They didn't hesitate to come to the assistance of the banks recently.....particularly Mac Bank. Also, same, but different, the NBN.....the only thing that's untouchable is their agreement with their bankers - the unions.

That's exactly what frustrates me. They copped a caning over those examples from Abbott. I think the blinkers here are ignoring the absolute hypocrisy in Abbott reversing his earlier stance on government interference - why? Cheap point scoring?
 
The 'Bailout' that Australian banks received (The wholesale credit market guarantee and deposit guarantee) made the government a not insignificant amount of money.

The 'Bailout' by the elimination of naked short selling equities was because most other markets were imposing similar bans, and when you've got a lot of hedge funds with money they want to short banks with all going into a small market that causes issues.
So the cynic says that the federal gov't should/will only intervene when it's in their interest or going to raise them money :!:
 
So the cynic says that the federal gov't should/will only intervene when it's in their interest or going to raise them money :!:

The risk to the financial system (and thus the impact on the economy) of a bank failure due to a liquidity crunch caused by a temporary dry up of short term credit markets would have been a much greater impact to the economy than grounding QF for 24 hours.
 
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you're totally right. I forgot to add. To my last that I respect your opinion and your reasons for holding it. Sorry.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

I know I know :)

While we're at it - I apologise for the Joan Kirner wardrobe comment........ Polka dots should never be inflicted upon anyone... except The Wiggles maybe ;)
 
The 'Bailout' that Australian banks received (The wholesale credit market guarantee and deposit guarantee) made the government a not insignificant amount of money.

The 'Bailout' by the elimination of naked short selling equities was because most other markets were imposing similar bans, and when you've got a lot of hedge funds with money they want to short banks with all going into a small market that causes issues.

Precisely, they acted in the National interests.....seems like there may be a difference between National & Self interest with this Government.

Maybe they should have waited for Mac Bank or one of the others to fail and then get of their hands to do something about it.......
 
Precisely, they acted in the National interests.....seems like there may be a difference between National & Self interest with this Government.

Maybe they should have waited for Mac Bank or one of the others to fail and then get of their hands to do something about it.......

They let B&B fail, Macquarie is TBTF
 
This is a very relevant question / point......

Except that we're not (or at least I'm not) talking about who is right or wrong in their background motives (eg. whether the employees are entitled fairly to ask for what they are, or whether management has the right to go down the strategy they seek to), nor am I talking about the diplomatic and people skills that any or all sides possess.... These are subjective discussions that no-one will ever be able to win an argument on......

To me - the issue is solely related to "industrial action".

IE. Action taken by a party because they don't like the fact that they're not getting their way and they want to throw their toys out of their cot to make their point. Such action invariably is designed to cause disruption. (I'm not casting judgement on either side here).


A/ Now - the unions have decided at some point that instead of agreeing to whatever was on the table - they would launch disruptive industrial action. (Their right to do so).

B/ In the end - the company responded, not by agreeing to such demands, but with their own disruptive industrial action (Their right to do so).

Regardless of the merits of the arguments - B could only legally occur as a result of A occurring.

That's my point - and that's why I blame the unions.

My view on the industrial action is discrete, separate and isolated from any views I may hold on:

1/ The actual claims by individual parties and their merits;
2/ The performance and abilities of management;
3/ The strategy and direction of the company.

Couldn't this also be written the other way?

I.e. A/ Now - the Qantas have decided at some point that instead of agreeing to whatever was on the table - they would cease negotiations. (Their right to do so).

B/ In the end - the unions responded, not by agreeing to such demands, but with their own disruptive industrial action (Their right to do so).

C/ Qantas spat the dummy and shut the place down including wanting to lock out people who aren't in dispute.

It takes two to tango, and I doubt that either party is completely blameless here. Indeed I don't believe anybody has actually said that.

However, as I have written many times there will be an ongoing relationship after this dispute is over. QF management keep insisting that they are highly competent and need to make major changes to ensure the company's survival in a changing business environment.

Unless they have pilotless planes which don't need any staff then they will need at least some of their current staff. If retrenchments are inevitable then the people who remain need to feel that they have been treated fairly as have their former colleagues.

When work practises change, as QF management insist they surely must then you will need people who feel that their management will treat them fairly as the change unfolds.

A collaborative work environment is essential. We have talked about old guard unionists but surely they are only a reaction to old guard management who seem to want to treat their workers as chattels.

Modernisation and mutual respect is essential for both 'sides'. Qantas management may have a vision for the future but unless it has been shared with their workers then how can they change? Fear of the unknown is what drives reactive actions to protect what you currently have.

It has often been said (and I have written it at least once in either AFF or FT threads) that companies get the unions they deserve. What did the workers do to get this type of management?
 
That's exactly what frustrates me. They copped a caning over those examples from Abbott. I think the blinkers here are ignoring the absolute hypocrisy in Abbott reversing his earlier stance on government interference - why? Cheap point scoring?

Abbott will always find something to have a go at the government about, and it doesn't matter if what he is having a go at them about is something that goes against his party's principles, much to mine and others distaste.
 
However, as I have written many times there will be an ongoing relationship after this dispute is over. QF management keep insisting that they are highly competent and need to make major changes to ensure the company's survival in a changing business environment.

Unless they have pilotless planes which don't need any staff then they will need at least some of their current staff. If retrenchments are inevitable then the people who remain need to feel that they have been treated fairly as have their former colleagues.

When work practises change, as QF management insist they surely must then you will need people who feel that their management will treat them fairly as the change unfolds.

A collaborative work environment is essential. We have talked about old guard unionists but surely they are only a reaction to old guard management who seem to want to treat their workers as chattels.

Modernisation and mutual respect is essential for both 'sides'. Qantas management may have a vision for the future but unless it has been shared with their workers then how can they change? Fear of the unknown is what drives reactive actions to protect what you currently have.

It has often been said (and I have written it at least once in either AFF or FT threads) that companies get the unions they deserve. What did the workers do to get this type of management?

IMO this the how and why Joyce has failed as a leader. He has let himself get too caught up in the dispute and has lost sight of the bigger picture, the need to work with these people afterwards. Not a problem if he plans to get rid of all staff.
 
IMO this the how and why Joyce has failed as a leader. He has let himself get too caught up in the dispute and has lost sight of the bigger picture, the need to work with these people afterwards. Not a problem if he plans to get rid of all staff.

Could the longer term strategy be Joyce is there to get labour sorted, and then they introduce a new CEO that is more friendly with the staff in the mid term?
 
Couldn't this also be written the other way?

I.e. A/ Now - the Qantas have decided at some point that instead of agreeing to whatever was on the table - they would cease negotiations. (Their right to do so).

B/ In the end - the unions responded, not by agreeing to such demands, but with their own disruptive industrial action (Their right to do so).

C/ Qantas spat the dummy and shut the place down including wanting to lock out people who aren't in dispute.

It takes two to tango, and I doubt that either party is completely blameless here. Indeed I don't believe anybody has actually said that.

However, as I have written many times there will be an ongoing relationship after this dispute is over. QF management keep insisting that they are highly competent and need to make major changes to ensure the company's survival in a changing business environment.

Unless they have pilotless planes which don't need any staff then they will need at least some of their current staff. If retrenchments are inevitable then the people who remain need to feel that they have been treated fairly as have their former colleagues.

When work practises change, as QF management insist they surely must then you will need people who feel that their management will treat them fairly as the change unfolds.

A collaborative work environment is essential. We have talked about old guard unionists but surely they are only a reaction to old guard management who seem to want to treat their workers as chattels.

Modernisation and mutual respect is essential for both 'sides'. Qantas management may have a vision for the future but unless it has been shared with their workers then how can they change? Fear of the unknown is what drives reactive actions to protect what you currently have.

It has often been said (and I have written it at least once in either AFF or FT threads) that companies get the unions they deserve. What did the workers do to get this type of management?

I would very much agree with the thrust of all your commentary here.

Only three points I would make:

1/ All non-ALAEA/TWU/AIPA staff were NOT being locked out and QF stated they would still be paid.

2/ I accept your theory of reversing it.....Except that I personally do not feel that disruptive industrial action by the union is acceptable. IMO at the end of the day - if you don't like the deal.... leave. (There is an implied incentive to management not to screw them too badly.... as you say - the planes won't fly or fix themselves.)

3/ It appears to me that there have been significant extraneous claims on behalf of the unions.....I am suspect of if the current legislation is responsible for that..?? (Time will tell on this one)

My point here is that perhaps bad management relations are a factor... But perhaps also it is due to over-belligerent unions being re-emboldened and holding a gun to management from day 1 (aka resisting change). IMHO I feel it's most likely a combination of the two.
 
Could the longer term strategy be Joyce is there to get labour sorted, and then they introduce a new CEO that is more friendly with the staff in the mid term?

That would be the logical/standard way to do it.
 
They let B&B fail, Macquarie is TBTF

B&B failed for a different reasons & at a different time frame to when the real *hit hit the fan. IMMIC, margin loads held by directors were among the many reasons it failed - they never had a deposit book to worry about either.

Don't get me wrong, IMO, the Government did the right by getting involved with the banks & they should have done the exactly the same thing with QF. Waiting for something to happen so you can fix it after the event is pathetic. We all know they waited so the next time they get together with their masters, they can act like the pilots......it wasn't us type of thing.
 
B&B failed for a different reasons & at a different time frame to when the real *hit hit the fan. IMMIC, margin loads held by directors were among the many reasons it failed - they never had a deposit book to worry about either.

Don't get me wrong, IMO, the Government did the right by getting involved with the banks & they should have done the exactly the same thing with QF. Waiting for something to happen so you can fix it after the event is pathetic. We all know they waited so the next time they get together with their masters, they can act like the pilots......it wasn't us type of thing.

The impact on the economy from even one of the smaller banks failing would have been far more substantial than QF being grounded for 24 hours.
 
fair enough. But this also means you lost the argument ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

Fair enough I concede defeat on this occasion ;)


Sent from my iPhone using AustFreqFly app
 
The impact on the economy from even one of the smaller banks failing would have been far more substantial than QF being grounded for 24 hours.

Not over a weekend, but I accept that your proposition is correct. However, for the Government to go directly to the FWA & request a Termination rather than Suspension would suggest that the government thought otherwise.

I bet those Judges & lawyers wished that the Government had acted earlier.
 
Not over a weekend, but I accept that your proposition is correct. However, for the Government to go directly to the FWA & request a Termination rather than Suspension would suggest that the government thought otherwise.

I bet those Judges & lawyers wished that the Government had acted earlier.

The judges, sure, but imagine the fees the Lawyers and Barristers were earning. Do they get penalty rates as well?
 
The judges, sure, but imagine the fees the Lawyers and Barristers were earning. Do they get penalty rates as well?

Read my post again, and can't believe I slotted in the lawyers - Too many post today is the only excuse I've got :oops:
 
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