Qantas frequent flyers unleash over ‘almost worthless points’ in submissions to Senate

[RooFlyer]

Taxes or carrier surcharges?

 

[Must...Fly!]

Love it. Qantas promises to release more award seats. Instead, it quietly increases taxes on award seats.

I think this is actually an airport/government increase. I posted a thread a thread in August regarding a similar increase in taxes & charges for Velocity redemptions.

 

[williamsf1]

Might not be completely relevant, but it looks like Qantas has quietly increased the taxes on domestic classic reward flights. It is now showing me $51 in taxes/surcharges to fly between Sydney and Brisbane. I booked a reward booking at the end of September for travel between these two cities at the end of September and it only cost $46 in taxes/surcharges, so a $5 jump.

MEL/SYD is now $45, which I think is up from $39 or $38 when I last booked one a few months back. Also, bizarre that surcharges to Brisbane are more expensive than flying to Melbourne.

The domestic WG security charge went up from 6.50 to 10.22 (excl GST) for all departures both normal fares and rewards

As for the price difference between BNE and MEL ... someone needs to pay for the new runway

 

[LondonAussie]

Qantas should start flying to Frankfurt and Paris and make a lot more CR seats available, it will solve the problem.

Alan Joyce mentioned in one of the Senate hearings that the French government denied Qantas' request to fly to Paris, but they do have a codeshare partnership with Air France that may help?

 

[RichardMEL]

Qantas points are rubbish, mostly because they don't fly much anywhere useful, and many of their partners who do, don't like Qantas. Even Emirates whom they borderline prostitute themselves to, do not give QF any sort of preferential treatment when it comes to reward seats.

Qantas should start flying to Frankfurt and Paris and make a lot more CR seats available, it will solve the problem.

IMO that would solve the (a) problem for YOU (and like minded souls) because you wish to fly to these euro destinations. Not helpful for folks who want to fly to the US, Asia or wherever.

This is the thing.. and I'm not meaning this personally at all because I get it, but it's so subjective in terms of what would make things "better" for the punters. Many people (and I am sure I am included) look first at the things that irritate them the most, or where the system doesn't provide what they want. That's human nature so I'm not having a go.. just acknowledging that this is a thing for many people when they evaluate how useful ANY type of scheme is in how it helps (or hinders) them.

QF are moving the A380 to JNB and this, one hopes/assumes, may allow for more seats to be available on this route. Personally this has zero impact on me as I have no reason or need to go to that part of the world, but I do absolutely see that IF higher capacity makes (some more) reward seats available to the people that do want to fly there then that's a good thing - even if not for myself.

I also caution about the notion of making "a lot more" CR seats available on any/all routes. I mean that's great for the punters to redeem for sure, but remember the airline is a business who actually has an obligation to sell seats and make some money to make the routes profitable and keep a reason for flying them. Yes sure, CR seat redemptions do have a value to QF, since they're essentially paying themselves for those seats at a certain rate, but it's not going to make routes sustainable if large numbers of seats are essentially given at a discount imo.

And let's face it, if an airline would make reward seats available on a large scale on a particular route, that would imply they felt they can't actually sell these seats - so why fly the route? It's one thing t make a "points plane" or two as examples on a route, but day in day out it's about flying routes that actually won't lose money.

It's a reality that the supply will always outstrip demand and while we all want more seats (and of course most want premium cabin seats) available for redemption - this would come at a longer term cost.

I reckon such things like "points planes" and such are classic examples of "loss leaders" - offer up something as a great deal that is a loss to the business to get folks in the door, and hopefully sell them other things you can make money from (eg: the "loyalty handcuffs").

imo.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Yes, EK hate everyone with their over the top surcharges that's true.

Not on Air Canada Aeroplan. It’s just the regular taxes and fees although the number of points required can fluctuate.

-RooFlyer88

 

[SCM]

These are the destinations I have redeemed QF points to get to/from in the past couple of years:

Melbourne
Colombo
Delhi
London Heathrow
London City
Milan
Doha
Tehran
Tunis
Amman
Helsinki
Lahore
Sydney
Hong Kong
Dubai
Baghdad
Male
Kuala Lumpur
Tokyo Narita

I'm very happy for you, but it seems like most people that are complaining about the value of these points don't care, or don't feel like they can reach these destinations on a cost-effective basis (for example, EK redemptions).

IMO that would solve the (a) problem for YOU (and like minded souls) because you wish to fly to these euro destinations. Not helpful for folks who want to fly to the US, Asia or wherever.
.....

I reckon such things like "points planes" and such are classic examples of "loss leaders" - offer up something as a great deal that is a loss to the business to get folks in the door, and hopefully sell them other things you can make money from (eg: the "loyalty handcuffs").

Flying to Asia is not and has never been a problem for cheap.

I agree on US, even though I personally don't care, but EU and US are two destinations QF should focus on improving.

Points planes are definitely not loss leaders, points have a value, and they bring the airline money. The airline shouldn't be losing any money on points (especially economy).

 

[Mr H]

I'm very happy for you, but it seems like most people that are complaining about the value of these points don't care, or don't feel like they can reach these destinations on a cost-effective basis (for example, EK redemptions).

The only EK flights on that list are Baghdad to Male via Dubai. The rest are a pair of OWAs. I posted in specific response to someone who said the points were rubbish because you couldn’t get to any good destinations.

 

[Lynda2475]

I agree on US, even though I personally don't care, but EU and US are two destinations QF should focus on improving.

Well QF only fly to EU (FCO) seasonally, otherwise closest they get is the UK.

IME it is much easier to find US awards; was looking yesterday and there were some QF J seats on SYD to LAX and DFW in July on a couple of days; and Y almost every day. From what I can see they haven't dropped any J seats for August or September yet.

 

[CaptJCool]

I also caution about the notion of making "a lot more" CR seats available on any/all routes. I mean that's great for the punters to redeem for sure, but remember the airline is a business who actually has an obligation to sell seats and make some money to make the routes profitable and keep a reason for flying them. Yes sure, CR seat redemptions do have a value to QF, since they're essentially paying themselves for those seats at a certain rate, but it's not going to make routes sustainable if large numbers of seats are essentially given at a discount imo.

$2.5 billion profit last year suggests QF had a good year so do they need to review their redemption policy.

of course its been unhelpful that EK has not come on-line to aid the CR seat volumes, nor the departure of QR to Virgin quarters

As with most airlines, the pent-up demand over 3 years has seen lots of cash splashed for folk to travel internationally to see parents or friends and family when they had been unable to do as result of lockdowns.

what's any airline to do ? cut their fare prices down?

QF doesn't seem to be too concerned about "distressed seat inventory" as prices have until now kept going up and up - however, as that demand is met, the challenge is of repeat business = if the people who flew already paid through the nose for seats in the bleachers, when can they afford the next trip?

So QF are living the dream of untold riches and certainly not afflicted with "Empty Seat Syndrome"

 

[KSC]

I've never had success in getting a seat released as WP. One of the operators acted like I was asking for the unicorn.

I have had seats released as a bronze. I must of had a Platinum tongue moment.

 

[RichardMEL]

QF may have made $2.5b last financial year, after some years of big losses.. swings and roundabouts.

It's just not so simply to point at a profit and say "give me more CR availability" - QF has a big bill in aircraft orders over the next decade - A32x's, A350's 787-10's etc. Apart from some of that money needing to fund some of that,t there's a whole lot more that that money NEEDS to go to (imo anyway) like IT refeorms, even paying staff some more bucks/hiring more/training etc

Sure, there needs to be more capacity and thus more seats made available for redemption - easier said than done.

As for dropping prices - it's the same issue - capacity (across all carriers) vs demand. Even with Chinese carriers (slowly) coming back on line, it's still demand driven. Yes, QF pricing is seemingly arrogant, but at the same time it's clearly not TOTALLY irrational because they have high load factors and that suggests that the market is accepting the fares more or less - by QF and other carriers. Therefore, the incentive to lower fares (and also make more CR seats available) is minimal due to high demand and people paying those prices - as crazy as they are on many routes.

I can't think of a single QF (or actually any other carrier I've been on) flight this year - to and within the USA multiple times/routes, from Asia and of course domestic that haven't had near full loads.

If the market didn't support the fares being charged (by not purchasing) then prices would come down....

 

[L1925]

IMO that would solve the (a) problem for YOU (and like minded souls) because you wish to fly to these euro destinations. Not helpful for folks who want to fly to the US, Asia or wherever.

This is the thing.. and I'm not meaning this personally at all because I get it, but it's so subjective in terms of what would make things "better" for the punters. Many people (and I am sure I am included) look first at the things that irritate them the most, or where the system doesn't provide what they want. That's human nature so I'm not having a go.. just acknowledging that this is a thing for many people when they evaluate how useful ANY type of scheme is in how it helps (or hinders) them.

QF are moving the A380 to JNB and this, one hopes/assumes, may allow for more seats to be available on this route. Personally this has zero impact on me as I have no reason or need to go to that part of the world, but I do absolutely see that IF higher capacity makes (some more) reward seats available to the people that do want to fly there then that's a good thing - even if not for myself.

I also caution about the notion of making "a lot more" CR seats available on any/all routes. I mean that's great for the punters to redeem for sure, but remember the airline is a business who actually has an obligation to sell seats and make some money to make the routes profitable and keep a reason for flying them. Yes sure, CR seat redemptions do have a value to QF, since they're essentially paying themselves for those seats at a certain rate, but it's not going to make routes sustainable if large numbers of seats are essentially given at a discount imo.

And let's face it, if an airline would make reward seats available on a large scale on a particular route, that would imply they felt they can't actually sell these seats - so why fly the route? It's one thing t make a "points plane" or two as examples on a route, but day in day out it's about flying routes that actually won't lose money.

It's a reality that the supply will always outstrip demand and while we all want more seats (and of course most want premium cabin seats) available for redemption - this would come at a longer term cost.

I reckon such things like "points planes" and such are classic examples of "loss leaders" - offer up something as a great deal that is a loss to the business to get folks in the door, and hopefully sell them other things you can make money from (eg: the "loyalty handcuffs").

imo.

The days of “loss leaders” in any business are long gone. Why would someone sell at a loss in this economic or political climate ?

More likely they have looked at where to move aircraft around and capitalise on that to get seats full with either full paying or “reward” seats where they get payment anyway as any right minded business would.

 

[DC3]

I've never had success in getting a seat released as WP. One of the operators acted like I was asking for the unicorn.

 

[RichardMEL]

The days of “loss leaders” in any business are long gone. Why would someone sell at a loss in this economic or political climate ?

More likely they have looked at where to move aircraft around and capitalise on that to get seats full with either full paying or “reward” seats where they get payment anyway as any right minded business would.

I don't disagree with you on this. I mean QF wants to put is resources where demand is high and yield is also high. This is why QR tends to ceede much flying to OOL to JQ - as a leisure destination.

I still content that these "points planes" have been launched as more of a PR stunt than a profit one. ie: look you can get a plane to Seoul or London or whatever, citing the points planes, but I still see those efforts as token and probably loss leaders in the sense of they probably could make actual $$$ selling those flights, but want to sell the impression they are giving bacj to the QFF membership.

that is my point.

 

[Vic]

Luckily your opinion is useless, just as everyone else's is, in the eyes of Qantas. They won't listen to it and will still continue to issue points. QFF is a profitable business. It's their game that you voluntarily agreed to.

If you cannot follow the rules of someone else's game, then your cognitive and decision making ability in this setting is rubbish.
Your statement is identical to saying that (using a sporting/game example) "all soccer players on the soccer pitch not being allowed to use their hands to touch the ball is rubbish".
Go ahead, keep on disagreeing with how Qantas created their game and how they control you to play it.
All of this is playing to their advantage, you (and others with a similar mindset) just don't know it and probably never will because it's difficult for said people to see things from the other perspective.
I bet QFF have a big sign in their offices saying "don't hate the player, hate the game"

If an equivalent saying ever existed, it would probably be to "just start your own airline"
Remember, it's not the truth that hurts, it's the judgement!

Hmm yeah, you seem to have missed my other point - I have choices and I'm exercising those choices. Qantas might have their game, they're only going to make profit when people make the qantas choice.

But yeah, great that your opinion is defend qantas...

 

[RichardMEL]

(obviously I meant QF and not QR in my post above - just noticed the type but too late to edit )

 

[jcwhizz]

Certainly not worthless - best rate of return for upgrades, worst for buying stuff in the Qantas store - nice article here summarizes differing values.

What Are Points Worth? - FreePoints.com.au

How much are your Qantas, Velocity, Everyday Rewards and Flybuys points worth? The answer varies depending on how you choose to redeem them, but the gist of

freepoints.com.au

 

[Kangol]

Hmm yeah, you seem to have missed my other point - I have choices and I'm exercising those choices. Qantas might have their game, they're only going to make profit when people make the qantas choice.

But yeah, great that your opinion is defend qantas...

I haven't missed any point, regardless of what your opinion is.
You certainly have choices, at the end of the day due to your irreversible choice, QFF is getting more out of you, than the other way round.
They don't care about individuals, they already are a profitable big business.
Not defending Qantas, that's your mistaken belief.
It's an explanation of what they have done to you and countless others.
You and many others are clearly hurt by their actions, understandably.
If one were to refer to Bertrand Russell on your take on things, this is probably what might come up:

A quote from A History of Western Philosophy

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.

www.goodreads.com

 

[leon_rex]

I dunno. They’ve annoyed me so much lately that I advance book discount J in VA. It’s a fairly amateur setup onboard - more so than the previous incarnation - but it’s a cheap way to get a nice big seat and bubbles. And honestly, what else do you need from a PER or DRW? Can anyone confirm the planes still get serviced at regular intervals??