Qantas in talks on seating shake-up

[NYCguy]

Re: QF F a thing of the past?

I would have thought that F makes sense for QF from SYD and MEL to LAX, JFK and possibly SFO, HKG (lots and lots of rich people there... Duh...) and LHR.

Obviously CX dropped F to Australia for some reason. Can QF/OW really only fill (a maximum of) 14 F seats between SYD and HKG every day?

I recall an interview with Geoff Dixon when he talked about QF services to OOL, and said that there was no way he was going to keep flying 738s with J cabins out of SYD & MEL to the Gold Coast if the J seats were mainly filled with staff and upgrades. I guess the same goes for F on the long-haul fleet.

One should be wary, however, of over reacting. Times are tough for many at the moment, and premium travel may well have declined markedly, but people/companies will begin to feel prosperous again at some stage, and might just become keen on F again.

 

[anat0l]

Let me just start by saying I am not looking forward to this news.

I believe the QF F product differentiated the airline or made it have its place in the global market, let alone the Australian one, besides other factors and being the de facto flag carrier.

I'm disappointed that the number of F routes is going to dip dramatically. I know the airline industry has collectively fallen on hard times and we have heard countless arguments of whether to adapt for new expectations or to avoid flip-flopping before times will (inevitably?) improve.

The main thing too is that QF will need to invest significant effort in order to improve its product in other classes to compensate for the lack of F. Whilst not a lot of people flew F (because they could not afford it), having F lifted the QF a bit because it set it apart from other full cost carriers which only have J and Y or J, Y+ and Y products. Now it competes in a league very, very much like them, except the product is looking rather tired (Skybed?).

QF also suffers from a traditionalistic complex, I believe. Sure, QF had the award winning revolutionary Skybed, but it's not so revolutionary now and probably wouldn't win any awards! Skybed II was a good move in this regard (although I would like to see QF add a bit more touches of service to its international J offerings). And running (some international) routes with loopback IFE (no AVOD) is a joke.

Of course for some of us this means no F travel due to upgrades or awards at all on some routes. I might just have to consider flying F with another carrier, e.g. BA, since if all the F is going to be on the A380 then going by the current trend of things even as a WP I'd be more likely to be struck by lightning than to score a F Classic Award seat. Yes, I'm aware that some seats will more than likely open up after the 747 F inventory is all gone.......

 

[anat0l]

Re: QF F a thing of the past?

I trust this source as much as ACA, but here's the link anyway:

First class to become a thing of the past | News.com.au

From the article:

...Qantas was increasingly focusing on those main routes and pulling back on most other routes as its low cost subsidiary Jetstar takes over.

JQ taking over? More routes? Good God no! :evil:

Unless JQ starts straightening up and flying right (no puns intended), this is ridiculous statement and a move. I'm being deadly serious here.


Once again, a QF related article brings out some of the most absurd comments from the sludge pits.

 

[jaffa]

I'm glad l am not the only one feeling this way!

QF l hope you are reading this!

 

[dajop]

jaffa, anat01, please don't take this the wrong way, but how often/how many times in the last few years have you taken flights where you have paid for F, to the destinations other than SIN, LHR & LAX? (ie JNB, BKK, EZE, SFO & HKG)?

Too be honest the one that would surprise me the most for missing out on F would be HKG, but I guess QF were operating 29/30 without selling F for a fair part of '09 so demand can't be that strong.

 

[NM]

12 hours in a pressurised relatively-dry metal tube ...

While the use of the word "pressurised" may be technically accurate, in that when at altitude the pressure inside is indeed higher than outside, for most of us (and I dare say all Australians), the pressure inside the metal tube will be lower than what we normally experience on the ground. Cabin pressure at cruise is usually the same as being at around 8,000 feet, or similar to that experienced on the south (i.e. lower) rim of The Grand Canyon.

So it may be more accurate to describe the reduced comfort of the flying experience as a result of the reduced pressure experienced in the metal tube, rather than the interpretation some people may have that air pressure is higher in a "pressurised" metal tube.

 

[Voyages]

I've never flown First class with QF. But I enjoy reading this conversation

 

[JohnK]

JQ taking over? More routes? Good God no! :evil:

You have to give JQ a chance to be in the news more often.

Actually makes the decision to switch allegiances much easier. Never ever will I fly Jetstar unless it is a matter of life and death and I have no choice in the matter....

 

[anat0l]

jaffa, anat0l, please don't take this the wrong way, but how often/how many times in the last few years have you taken flights where you have paid for F, to the destinations other than SIN, LHR & LAX? (ie JNB, BKK, EZE, SFO & HKG)?

Well, firstly what's there to be offended of by your question?

Now that there are no weapons to be had, I have never paid for F. There.

I have 1 upgrade and 1 Classic Award. The upgrade was to SIN and the Award to LHR (from BKK).

In saying that, I'm still confused why the question.

 

[samh004]

In saying that, I'm still confused why the question.

I think he’s getting to the point that if everyone were in the cabin with upgrades, whether at the gate or with points, QF wouldn’t really be getting the return they want. Though I could be wrong

 

[dajop]

I think he’s getting to the point that if everyone were in the cabin with upgrades, whether at the gate or with points, QF wouldn’t really be getting the return they want. Though I could be wrong

Yep exactly! It's alway very well to sit back on criticise QF for removing F from their "ancilliary" routes (stressing that they are not removing F altogether), but unless there's money to back it up (ie people are spending money to fly F in those routes), it is probably irresponsible of QF (from a shareholders point of view) to continue flying around planes with uneconomic F cabins.

Unless of course you get to the US (domestic) situation where elites are kept happy by flying them around in F on economy fares. But I don't think that is part of QF's business model somehow.

I just can't see all that many people flying F to Johannesburg, Buenos Aires & Bangkok, or even San Francisco.

 

[anat0l]

I think he’s getting to the point that if everyone were in the cabin with upgrades, whether at the gate or with points, QF wouldn’t really be getting the return they want. Though I could be wrong

Yep exactly! It's alway very well to sit back on criticise QF for removing F from their "ancilliary" routes (stressing that they are not removing F altogether), but unless there's money to back it up (ie people are spending money to fly F in those routes), it is probably irresponsible of QF (from a shareholders point of view) to continue flying around planes with uneconomic F cabins.

Unless of course you get to the US (domestic) situation where elites are kept happy by flying them around in F on economy fares. But I don't think that is part of QF's business model somehow.

I just can't see all that many people flying F to Johannesburg, Buenos Aires & Bangkok, or even San Francisco.

Fair enough.

If F was in so much trouble since the GFC, that wasn't well reflected in the extremely slow drop in prices (which still didn't keep up with competition), plus availability still being a premium. JNB tends to be full in all classes - they are full flights almost all the time, plus they can't all be business travellers (viz. mining industry), considering that last time I travelled on SYD/JNB both ways, there were quite a few munchkins sitting in J and Y+.

BKK F is a bit of dead sector but that also means QF1/2 will no longer have F. So that makes 2 of 3 Kangaroo hops with no F, leaving only one. The British better start liking their own flag carrier more again (or God forbid - VS).

There's a case here to be thought about whether this initiative is because F is a profitless exercise or simply this is one of the few ways QF can increase profits in order to either (a) appease shareholders and the law, or (b) raise capital for new projects.

As already has been mentioned, with no F ex-MEL it seems the MEL T2 F Lounge will have no place except to appease some WPs and OWEs; a shame because I really liked that lounge. OK, that alone is not enough to stop QF from closing or - again God forbid - downsizing it. But it looks like it's going to happen.... (passing idea: farewell to MEL T2 F Lounge Do....)

 

[dajop]

As already has been mentioned, with no F ex-MEL

Is that confirmed? They will have too many F equipped aircraft to do just 2xSYD-LAX & 2xSYD-LHR (which would mean keeping BKK).... unless they use the plane on SYD-HKG as well (on its own). Or use it on MEL-LAX and QF9/10 instead of QF1/2.

 

[Flying Fox]

Personally I consider a points claim for F paid for in some way.

We all collect QFFF points from various means and the companies who supply goods & services with the points pay QF some $ to issue them to our accounts. Therefore, when we purchased a meal at a restarurant to get 3 QFFF points per $ (or similar), we paid for the points in some way and indirectly paid for the F, J Y+ or Y seat.

Afterall, if it wasn't for ppl like us QF wouldn't be making a massive profit ($310M) from their QFFF scheme -

Qantas on cloud nine with Frequent Flyer | The Australian

 

[serfty]

Is that confirmed? They will have too many F equipped aircraft to do just 2xSYD-LAX & 2xSYD-LHR (which would mean keeping BKK).... unless they use the plane on SYD-HKG as well (on its own). Or use it on MEL-LAX and QF9/10 instead of QF1/2.

There's nothing concrete from Qantas re MEL losing First class services.

Only speculation from the author of the article linked to in the OP:

... and could mean first-class seats might only be available on flights between Sydney and Los Angeles or London via Singapore. ...

 

[Dee Thom]

Actually makes the decision to switch allegiances much easier. Never ever will I fly Jetstar unless it is a matter of life and death and I have no choice in the matter....

DJ is looking better by the day.................

Cheers Dee

 

[markis10]

Is that confirmed? They will have too many F equipped aircraft to do just 2xSYD-LAX & 2xSYD-LHR (which would mean keeping BKK).... unless they use the plane on SYD-HKG as well (on its own). Or use it on MEL-LAX and QF9/10 instead of QF1/2.

Not really, they have two spare aircraft not flying/enroute at any one time if you count LHR as a three aircraft cycle and LAX two aircraft, and given some of the aircraft will be close to C checks and not that far away from a D check by the time this is implemented they need to allow for extended periods of downtime on those aircraft from time to time. I am sure the last thing QF want to do with their F routes is have the problems JQ are seeing because of their high aircraft utilisation not having spare capacity to cater for murphys law!

 

[serfty]

Methinks it would be QF9/10, QF11/12, QF31/32 and QF93/94.

Each require 2½ 388's to operate a daily service - this leaves 2 at any one time for rotations.

I have seen speculation that 332/333 are being considered for QF107/QF108 operation LAX/JFK.

 

[Alanslegal]

(this is pretty far fetched) but to raise some revenue on potentially empty F seats ... QF could 'auction' one or two F seats to existing travellers a week out from the flight date.

Imagine if you were flying Y (knew you had zero chance of an upgrade to J) yet could bid $$$ for a F seat. I could see people bidding at least over $1,000 for that flight upgrade to F.

 

[ric_melb]

It would seem to me that Qantas miscalculated the need for First Class seats way back when. I would certainly doubt the need for them on flights to JNB and EZE.
I think the crux of the matter is how many people will pay cash for First Class at a price at which Qantas calculates they make adequate return.
Whilst using points to pay for a First Class seat is also payment, I doubt is is enough to cover a lack of flyers paying cash.