Qantas Passengers "dumped" at Christchurch airport after diverting from Wellington after missing curfew

[kangarooflyer88]

NZ has the same D sticker system that we have in Australia, it's just not really used these days. Most recent frequent use was the Air NZ flight that went NRT-CHC-AKL-NRT but that's long gone.

Would be interesting to see if passengers on yesterday's flight used the D sticker system to board their QF flight from the INTL terminal

Needs to stop? The downside of this is that essentially means that anyone taking an international flight out the country would need to be actually in the country first. So connecting passengers (from other international flights) would have to pass through immigration and enter the country first in order to connect to their onward flight. For New Zealand, I am guessing it would be OK for QF, JQ and VA, and for NZ would probably work well for departures from CHC, WLG and ZQN. But not sure it would work so well for AKL, with more I->I connecting traffic.

I suppose an issue could be I>I transfers, however, there are ways to resolve that issue. For instance, in the United States prior to 9/11 international arrivals not entering the US were sequestered into a holding area where they would be escorted to their plane by border officers when boarding commenced. Now obviously that facility has gone away, however, for those with Global Entry or Mobile Passport the process is still very fast having flown into LAX, SFO, HNL and a number of other US ports from abroad. Like we're talking 5 minutes here which barely makes a dent anywhere. Now I know, Australia isn't a world leader when it comes to processing international passengers (due to its emmigration and immigration process) but the US has shown it can be done.

In defence of segregated domestic and international departures (and I can't believe I'm making this defence), there are some merits. Specifically I can think of flying into Vancouver from Australia and not having to clear security. Instead it was a quick iris scan for immigration and I was dumped into domestic departures with my bags being forwarded on to the final destination of Saint John. This system, called One Stop Security, made possible through an ICAO annex, is available at a number of Canadian airports including Vancouver and Toronto.

So I guess what I am trying to say is please make the process smooth one way or another. If you wanna do segregation there should be 0 connection process. It shouldn't be like the nightmare that is Changi where you have to show up to your gate 30 or 45 minutes early to clear security. You should be able to board your plane or go to the lounge without worrying about security or immigration. On the other hand, if you want an unsegregated experience as is the case like the US, make the process of immigration and security painless as they have done for Global Entry members.

 

[aikman]

News article on this. Passengers slept on the floor. Qantas apologised and offered a $15 voucher.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

News article on this. Passengers slept on the floor. Qantas apologised and offered a $15 voucher.
View attachment 308428

That's pretty horrible. Airport floors are not designed to be slept on, particularly during a once in a century global pandemic. If I were them, I'd try clearing immigration at that point or finding a way to the departure area. It's also unclear to my why security would need to be re-cleared since they were already screened in SYD and it's my understanding that Australia international flights and New Zealand international flights go through the exact same rigorous screen process employed in North America (i.e. no liquids over 100 ml, etc.)

As for Qantas, why couldn't they just add a little extra fuel to accommodate for the strong winds? It shouldn't be that hard to add a couple extra litres of fuel to a plane? As an aside, I received an email from QF yesterday (unsure if this has anything to do with the controllable mess caused by them):



-RooFlyer88

 

[antycbr]

Would be interesting to see if passengers on yesterday's flight used the D sticker system to board their QF flight from the INTL terminal


I suppose an issue could be I>I transfers, however, there are ways to resolve that issue. For instance, in the United States prior to 9/11 international arrivals not entering the US were sequestered into a holding area where they would be escorted to their plane by border officers when boarding commenced. Now obviously that facility has gone away, however, for those with Global Entry or Mobile Passport the process is still very fast having flown into LAX, SFO, HNL and a number of other US ports from abroad. Like we're talking 5 minutes here which barely makes a dent anywhere. Now I know, Australia isn't a world leader when it comes to processing international passengers (due to its emmigration and immigration process) but the US has shown it can be done.

In defence of segregated domestic and international departures (and I can't believe I'm making this defence), there are some merits. Specifically I can think of flying into Vancouver from Australia and not having to clear security. Instead it was a quick iris scan for immigration and I was dumped into domestic departures with my bags being forwarded on to the final destination of Saint John. This system, called One Stop Security, made possible through an ICAO annex, is available at a number of Canadian airports including Vancouver and Toronto.

So I guess what I am trying to say is please make the process smooth one way or another. If you wanna do segregation there should be 0 connection process. It shouldn't be like the nightmare that is Changi where you have to show up to your gate 30 or 45 minutes early to clear security. You should be able to board your plane or go to the lounge without worrying about security or immigration. On the other hand, if you want an unsegregated experience as is the case like the US, make the process of immigration and security painless as they have done for Global Entry members.

OT but my theory with Changi is that there is so much airport retail that they’ve designed it so that the shops don’t need to be airside, reducing the screening burden.

 

[justinbrett]

Who's the contractor for QF in AKL?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

OT but my theory with Changi is that there is so much airport retail that they’ve designed it so that the shops don’t need to be airside, reducing the screening burden.

But again, my argument is what's the purpose of security screening for international connections? There frankly isn't one as Canada has proven with OSS and which is incorporated into existing international aviation regulations. It's a burden on the airport and travellers with zero benefit in terms of security.

Getting back on topic, is AKL airside open 24/7 or does that close like other airports?

-RooFlyer88

 

[antycbr]

Who's the contractor for QF in AKL?

Menzies Aviation.

 

[justinbrett]

As for Qantas, why couldn't they just add a little extra fuel to accommodate for the strong winds? It shouldn't be that hard to add a couple extra litres of fuel to a plane?

No, you’re talking about enroute headwinds, that wasn’t the issue here. It was the wind direction and speed at SYD which meant they could only use a single runway, and when that happens there are more aircraft that have slots than that are able to be processed.

Menzies Aviation.

I was originally going to question the contractors handling of the event, but reading that news article carefully, I’m not sure there’s much they could do, although the $15 voucher is stingy given the circumstances.

However the real issue is AKL wouldn’t process the pax until 0500, so talk of hotels etc is pointless. By the time 0500 came along it was close enough to departure.

QF should really reconsider late night arrivals into NZ if even its largest airport can’t staff for diversions. I can’t imagine this happening in BNE or MEL.

 

[eastwest101]

No, you’re talking about enroute headwinds, that wasn’t the issue here. It was the wind direction and speed at SYD which meant they could only use a single runway, and when that happens there are more aircraft that have slots than that are able to be processed.



I was originally going to question the contractors handling of the event, but reading that news article carefully, I’m not sure there’s much they could do, although the $15 voucher is stingy given the circumstances.

However the real issue is AKL wouldn’t process the pax until 0500, so talk of hotels etc is pointless. By the time 0500 came along it was close enough to departure.

QF should really reconsider late night arrivals into NZ if even its largest airport can’t staff for diversions. I can’t imagine this happening in BNE or MEL.

Yep - you make good points about fuel load, no extra fuel in the world can stop this situation as the single runway ops in SYD meant that the originally scheduled SYD-CHC was really "touch and go" to beat the WLG curfew because it departed late due to congestion at SYD. I think in this case QF either need to retime the departing flight earlier to give them more breathing room, or if they are going to persist in doing this to pax they need to tell WLG airport to have a good hard look at their own curfew, or make arrangements with other airports to cater for diverted pax late at night, or make alternative arrangements with their new BFF's Air New Zealand to retime some AUS-WLG flights and or maybe put pressure on AKL airport to not be a country bumpkin airport...probably NZ would have more clout with AKL airport than QF, so this might be an option.

The only thing directly within QF's control is to adjust the schedule to decrease the chance of stupid situations like this.

You can bet that if/when proper competition returns to the trans-Tasman market that stuff like this will be solved better/quicker, but with a cozy QF/NZ duopoly at the moment there isn't much incentive for QF/NZ to improve their service levels at the moment.

 

[gaz0303]

Not excusing QF for this but there is clearly a demand for evening flights from AU to NZ. NZ need airport hours that suit customer needs. My guess is that Wellington has a heavy load of workers vs leisure passengers. Curfew at WLG can’t be due to noise.

 

[aikman]

If I was a passenger on this flight I would have preferred Qantas reschedule the flight to the next morning and put everyone up in hotels in Sydney.

I get however that abandoning people in the hallway before immigration overnight is a lot cheaper and there is an opportunity for shifting the blame to the airport.

 

[justinbrett]

I get however that abandoning people in the hallway before immigration overnight is a lot cheaper

Well, I don't think it is. Extra fuel, handling charges, landing fees, 737 out of action for 12+ hours - would have just been easier and cheaper to cancel the flight completely.

and there is an opportunity for shifting the blame to the airport.

Well, more NZ Customs than AKL itself. Considering they opened to process the crew for 30 minutes, it was a reasonable assumption they'd stay open to process the pax. I mean, the vast, vast majority would be NZ & AU citizens who can use the Smart Gates. And all that said, they were aiming for WLG on take-off.

 

[TomVexille]

Not excusing QF for this but there is clearly a demand for evening flights from AU to NZ. NZ need airport hours that suit customer needs. My guess is that Wellington has a heavy load of workers vs leisure passengers. Curfew at WLG can’t be due to noise.

According to the airport website, it's noise.

 

[eastwest101]

Well, more NZ Customs than AKL itself. Considering they opened to process the crew for 30 minutes, it was a reasonable assumption they'd stay open to process the pax. I mean, the vast, vast majority would be NZ & AU citizens who can use the Smart Gates. And all that said, they were aiming for WLG on take-off.

Pretty much a nasty decision for the QF pilots, they can't control single runway ops in SYD and the delays, and I bet QF management put pressure on them to depart SYD. Once in the air, with the headwinds apparent, and the curfew window closing at WLG then its a decision to either continue on and break curfew at WLG, return to SYD and possibly break curfew there, maybe divert back to BNE? or divert to AKL where your pax gets dumped in a hallway while NZ customs and immigration open to get the crew entry to NZ but not the pax. Not to mention the curly issue of crew hours and who is going to operate the aircraft where and at what time the next day.

Not leaving in the first place, or rescheduling earlier, might have been preferable but maybe another way to think of this is to make the origin airport accountable for situations like this and return to the point of departure? Curfew fines and all.

I'm surprised those pax stayed airside without pulling a fire alarm, that would be the last resort, but a pretty effective way to gain entry to landside in that situation.

 

[eastwest101]

WLG curfew is a weird one in that both ends of the runway face the ocean. Seems this WLG curfew has been an issue in the past from this 2011 story here, the story is worth a read about the reasons for the delay.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Very simple idea for Qantas: stop scheduling your flights at insane hours. There is frankly no reason why you need to have flights taking off so bloody late out of SYD and elsewhere for WLG and other NZ destinations! Keep it to normal hours and this cough doesn't happen!

If I was a passenger on this flight I would have preferred Qantas reschedule the flight to the next morning and put everyone up in hotels in Sydney.

You might have, but I reckon many other passengers going to WLG for a variety of reasons may not like the idea of having such a delay. Case in point, my employer is flying me over to CHC in a couple weeks. It's an evening flight arriving into CHC at close to midnight. If the flight was delayed as you mention, I would miss much of the first day of the conference.

I get however that abandoning people in the hallway before immigration overnight is a lot cheaper and there is an opportunity for shifting the blame to the airport.

Well, I don't think it is. Extra fuel, handling charges, landing fees, 737 out of action for 12+ hours - would have just been easier and cheaper to cancel the flight completely.

Delays and irregular operations are rarely the cheapest option for an airline as justinbrett pointed out. I would also add to this paying pilot and crew overtime, covering their meals and accommodation. This story is another example of why forcing airlines to pay steep compensation to customers in the event of such delays in arrival can be a real money saver for the airlines in the long-run. Low cost budget airlines like RyanAir and EasyJet can only exist in Europe thanks to EU261 which penalizes them heavily for poor operational performance.

Well, more NZ Customs than AKL itself. Considering they opened to process the crew for 30 minutes, it was a reasonable assumption they'd stay open to process the pax. I mean, the vast, vast majority would be NZ & AU citizens who can use the Smart Gates. And all that said, they were aiming for WLG on take-off.

No doubt QF wanted to keep everyone in the transit area so that they don't have to hunt for passengers early in the morning for the onward flight to WLG. I'm also surprised QF didn't give passengers options to be rebooked onto NZ and JQ domestic flights instead. That would offer those customers who want to get a proper night's sleep (at the airlines expense) to do so, then take a late morning or afternoon flight down to WLG

According to the airport website, it's noise.

What is the penalty for Qantas disregarding the curfew? A fine? I know airports can provide exemptions to curfews in exceptional circumstances like this I reckon this one is.

Pretty much a nasty decision for the QF pilots, they can't control single runway ops in SYD and the delays, and I bet QF management put pressure on them to depart SYD. Once in the air, with the headwinds apparent, and the curfew window closing at WLG then its a decision to either continue on and break curfew at WLG, return to SYD and possibly break curfew there, maybe divert back to BNE? or divert to AKL where your pax gets dumped in a hallway while NZ customs and immigration open to get the crew entry to NZ but not the pax. Not to mention the curly issue of crew hours and who is going to operate the aircraft where and at what time the next day.

Can't blame the options. Only bad options given to the pilots from the airport and/or airline dispatching for what should've been a preventable incident. If you're gonna operate night time flights across the ditch, you need to be prepared for these issues to crop up which given the length of this thread highlights that it's not an isolated incident.

Not leaving in the first place, or rescheduling earlier, might have been preferable but maybe another way to think of this is to make the origin airport accountable for situations like this and return to the point of departure? Curfew fines and all.

There was clearly a lack of prioritization of flights by the airport per the story shared. It should've been obvious that international flights under a strict curfew like this one should be able to skip the queue and get out as soon as possible versus flights to other destinations like MEL which don't have such concerns.

I'm surprised those pax stayed airside without pulling a fire alarm, that would be the last resort, but a pretty effective way to gain entry to landside in that situation.

Unsure what the fine is for pulling a fire alarm in NZ, but I reckon they don't take it lightly. It's also unclear what would happen if a passenger followed the crew through NZ immigration?

-RooFlyer88

 

[kangarooflyer88]

WLG curfew is a weird one in that both ends of the runway face the ocean. Seems this WLG curfew has been an issue in the past from this 2011 story here, the story is worth a read about the reasons for the delay.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

A $12,000 fine for breaching curfew is frankly peanuts for the airline. How much did Qantas lose having a 737 out of service for the better part of a day? How much did Qantas lose in having to provide meal vouchers to customers? How much did Qantas lose having to pay extra salary and find last minute accommodation for crew? How much did the airline have to pay in EU261, US DoT and Canadian APPR compensation?

-RooFlyer88

 

[encryptededdy]

There is frankly no reason why you need to have flights taking off so bloody late out of SYD and elsewhere for WLG and other NZ destinations!

6:40pm scheduled departure is not that late. In fact, I'm booked on QF163 in late Jan specifically because I can go to the airport after work on a weekday. Of course, it means flirting with the curfew, but there is IMO a good reason for these flights to be scheduled when they are.

Air New Zealand also has late flights scheduled into Wellington on some days (but they seem to not have these issues).

 

[justinbrett]

No doubt QF wanted to keep everyone in the transit area so that they don't have to hunt for passengers early in the morning for the onward flight to WLG. I'm also surprised QF didn't give passengers options to be rebooked onto NZ and JQ domestic flights instead. That would offer those customers who want to get a proper night's sleep (at the airlines expense) to do so, then take a late morning or afternoon flight down to WLG

No it wouldn't have. The pax couldn't clear customs or security (if they could have at least cleared security, they could have waited inside the terminal where they had seating).

No amount of rebooking on other airlines would have changed this.

It was an appalling decision by NZ Customs not to stay open for the pax and for AKL not bringing in seating or food & drinks.

I am sure if QF knew this is what was in for the pax, they wouldn't have taken off from SYD in the first place.

 

[dajop]

At the end of the day, sometimes sh@##t happens for whatever reason. We all just hope it doesn't happen to us. It's amazing some of the hyperbole written on this in this thread. You just think QF would have contingencies in place ... after all it's not a far flung port they fly to just 3 times a week.

Curious, I can't see performance back further than this month, does NZ 254 (MEL-WLG) which is scheduled to arrive 5 mins earlier than QF163 ever meet the same fate?