"Qantas relaxed about Virgin revamp"

[anat0l]

Big deal....

Just because you don't use Optus doesn't make it a lousy deal. At least some people will get something out of it (it's not like it's a miniscule population who are on Optus for any number of services). As for the merits of Optus as a telco, that's another thread's discussion.

Velocity have really scored on providing anytime access for Velocity Gold and Plat members....

What is it with this obsession with ATA being the be-all-end-all motherload of all elite benefits:?:

Seriously? I thought you would be more rational in realising that (at least for the majority here) the whole elite package of VFF is now presenting a competitive - if not better - value proposition compared to QF. Part of that is ATA, but I'm loathe to call it the absolute killer.

Of course, for you it probably is a big killer benefit. So be it.

[Part of this may be redacted back to the ATA thread, where ever it is on this board...]

"Mr Hickey, do you know what status matching means?"

In a sense, he's not completely wrong. We dish out great advice about our FF habits that even normal people without excessive FF'ing can achieve. Like Business class return airfares to Europe for less than $2,000 apiece. Why don't normal people do it? It's not because they are stupid (well, not all of them anyway).

It's laziness. It's corporate policies that are too lazy to change (even if it'll save a bunch of dollars). It's the risk of the unknown (how many of us at work have come across that bit of resistance to our work proposals...).

Plus, status matching just gives you the status. It won't convert your balance of 500k QFF points into VFF points. Extreme example, but it's illustrative of another scenario. Most of us are marginal to sworn-off-QF flyers, so having a cache of a few thousand QFF points with no status isn't a scenario we think is a big deal.

That's not to say what Virgin are doing shouldn't or won't work - it has and it will work. There are plenty of "natural" reasons why it will work, but that aside there are people who will stay with QF for the reasons alluded to by Mr Hickey.

If the article is indeed a true refection of what Mr Hickey has said, the arrogance of QF would really drive me to fly DJ more...

I fail to see the arrogance here. Stubbornness, perhaps. What did straitman and I not see in the article properly?

If anything, I think this article was just response for response sake. Kind of like the Opposition's response to the Federal Budget: done for the sake of it, but otherwise...

...three words: big bl**dy deal.

The only interesting part of the whole thing was probably S&P's assessment (and that is if you can even consider S&P to have an iota of integrity).

 

[oz_mark]

There's no real reason for them to have knee jerk reactions to these changes. QF have been making changes through the year, and we know that there are more changes in the pipeline (targetting the P1, and possibly some improvements for P (the upgrade process maybe)). So they have their plans in train. There may be some tweaks here and there, but overall while the gap has narrowed, there are some aspects where Qantas still has some strengths. The real action may be behind the scenes when corporate contracts come up for renewal.

That's not to say they will do nothing. If the do some leakage across to DJ, the perhaps we will see some promotions targetted at those people.

 

[connieguy]

...three words: big bl**dy deal.

Yup damn those VA WP torpedoes heading for us, full speed ahead. They will never touch us says AJ.

 

[drron]

View attachment 3657

Then add no dividends for the 3 years that AJ has been at the helm.

The VBA chart actually looks even worse.And they haven't paid a dividend for 3 years either.

 

[QF WP]

To me this is akin to Channel 9 losing their mantle to Channel 7 (I've always hated Ch9's arrogance and attitude and have loved seeing Ch7 finally peg them back and take over as the pre-eminent station).

I suppose we all view the QF article differently - I see either the arrogance of sheer stupidity if QF think that VA won't be affecting their business revenues as the QFF's try VA (and for a lot of us here, via a status match). Perhaps QF won't notice the leakage...but VA will

Does it matter that I'm starting with 0 VVP's - no. Flying will build then up.

 

[anat0l]

Yup damn those VA WP torpedoes heading for us, full speed ahead. They will never touch us says AJ.

To me this is akin to Channel 9 losing their mantle to Channel 7 (I've always hated Ch9's arrogance and attitude and have loved seeing Ch7 finally peg them back and take over as the pre-eminent station).

I suppose we all view the QF article differently - I see either the arrogance of sheer stupidity if QF think that VA won't be affecting their business revenues as the QFF's try VA (and for a lot of us here, via a status match). Perhaps QF won't notice the leakage...but VA will

Does it matter that I'm starting with 0 VVP's - no. Flying will build then up.

I think Qantas would be stupid if they thought these changes will not affect them at all, but they can't possibly be that stupid.

As I said before, it's the difference between getting wounded, having your arm cut off and being stabbed in the heart. Only one of them will likely kill you. But all of them will hurt. And you're likely to notice all of them, really.

Pearl Harbour was completely destroyed by the Japanese. Several people died. The Americans were adamant that such an attack could never happen. Despite being one of the keynote battles in the favour of the Axis powers of WWII, it didn't immediately mean that Japan defeated the USA. But, it still hurt.

The article doesn't really portray that feeling that VA "can't do anything to us" (QF). If anything it just says, "Sure VA have done something. They haven't killed us, though." And, they're probably right. At best, VA have chopped off an arm - at best. That's still quite a win for VA, but it doesn't mean QF are dead or severely crippled. Once QF see more blood, then and only then will there be a true conceding of any sort from QF.

 

[oz_mark]

The article doesn't really portray that feeling that VA "can't do anything to us" (QF). If anything it just says, "Sure VA have done something. They haven't killed us, though." And, they're probably right. At best, VA have chopped off an arm - at best. That's still quite a win for VA, but it doesn't mean QF are dead or severely crippled. Once QF see more blood, then and only then will there be a true conceding of any sort from QF.

QF have drawn a line in the sand that they will protect their market share. So if it does fall below the 65% or so, then they will do something. But there are lots of different things they could do.

 

[lsmi4126]

Then add no dividends for the 3 years that AJ has been at the helm.

How many new aircraft have they taken delivery of over this period, and how many new aircraft do they have on order over the next 5 to 10 - somewhere around 150?

I'm fairly certain they haven't and won't all be purchased with operating leases. Perhaps if the pre-AJ divs had been redirected to some aircraft purchases, the international unit wouldn't be trying to compete with other carriers using 20 year old aircraft.

Just a few thoughts...

 

[munitalP]

How many new aircraft have they taken delivery of over this period, and how many new aircraft do they have on order over the next 5 to 10 - somewhere around 150?

I'm fairly certain they haven't and won't all be purchased with operating leases. Perhaps if the pre-AJ divs had been redirected to some aircraft purchases, the international unit wouldn't be trying to compete with other carriers using 20 year old aircraft.

Just a few thoughts...

Well said



munitalP

 

[kpc]

Just because you don't use Optus doesn't make it a lousy deal. At least some people will get something out of it (it's not like it's a miniscule population who are on Optus for any number of services).

Who says I don't use Optus? Just because Optus is now a partner with QF, and you can earn QF points, should / would not make the average punter choose Optus over the other telecommunication providers: value, plans, coverage etc would be factors that I would consider much more important than the ability to earn QF FF points...so I still say "Big deal"

What is it with this obsession with ATA being the be-all-end-all motherload of all elite benefits:?:

Seriously? I thought you would be more rational in realising that (at least for the majority here) the whole elite package of VFF is now presenting a competitive - if not better - value proposition compared to QF. Part of that is ATA, but I'm loathe to call it the absolute killer.

Did I say it was the absolute killer? You are putting words in my mouth! Velocity obviously realised a lot of QF WPs were upset over losing this and so provided it!!I think ATA is important for many (and for me somewhat....only used it twice when it was available with QF) but if it wasn't important to many, why was there a thread 1692 posts long where this issue was discussed and debated to death- not going to start it again. ATA is important for some, and not for others. Obviously, you are in the latter category.

Of course, for you it probably is a big killer benefit. So be it.

see above! Yes, so be it...

[Part of this may be redacted back to the ATA thread, where ever it is on this board...]

In a sense, he's not completely wrong. We dish out great advice about our FF habits that even normal people without excessive FF'ing can achieve. Like Business class return airfares to Europe for less than $2,000 apiece. Why don't normal people do it? It's not because they are stupid (well, not all of them anyway).

It's laziness. It's corporate policies that are too lazy to change (even if it'll save a bunch of dollars). It's the risk of the unknown (how many of us at work have come across that bit of resistance to our work proposals...).

Plus, status matching just gives you the status. It won't convert your balance of 500k QFF points into VFF points. Extreme example, but it's illustrative of another scenario. Most of us are marginal to sworn-off-QF flyers, so having a cache of a few thousand QFF points with no status isn't a scenario we think is a big deal.

That's not to say what Virgin are doing shouldn't or won't work - it has and it will work. There are plenty of "natural" reasons why it will work, but that aside there are people who will stay with QF for the reasons alluded to by Mr Hickey.

You are entitled to your opinion, and me to mine. In my book, status matching does overcome some (obviously, not the large QF points balances) of the reasons described by Mr Hickey for not jumping ship, otherwise why would Velocity bother status matching?

I fail to see the arrogance here. Stubbornness, perhaps.

Arrogance, patronising can be seen through my thick glasses...anyway, I'm not the only one to see these features in the article. Again, I stressed that I did say"...if the article reflects Mr Hickey's views accurately..."

Anyway, I don't intend to get into a verbose argument with you over this issue. I have stated my opinion which obviously is DIFFERENT to yours, and a verbose argument is NOT going to change my opinion moving forwards....

 

[Sojourner]

"Qantas relaxed about Virgin revamp" - they will be famous last words, made just before QFF program started to tank.

The way I see it, Qantas being in such a strong position, has so much more to lose. I can't see how you can 'revamp' your program and effectively reduce benefits for your FF customers at the same time your main competitor (for domestic flights in oz at least) is increasing benefits without experiencing a significant loss in market share.

I think John Borghetti has demonstrated a strong sense of business acumen. He's targeting the government and business customers which deliver the highest margins. You can see this where he has increased the frequency of flights on a major government route between Canberra and Sydney AND now has the airline also providing complimentary food and drinks for that route.

This starts to even out the field for Canberra based government employes when consiering their flight options.

For the broader business customer base, the status match has literally cut the gold (or platinum) handcuffs off existing Qantas business customers. He's also done this after delivering most of the lounge upgrades at major airports.

What really elevates his strategy from just 'great' to 'awesome', is how he's trying to capture families as well. Benefits such as the 'pooling' of SCs and points means that I will be strongly urging my partner to fly Virgin where prices are similar so we can pool our points. We mostly travel for leisure, and when we do 90% we travel together. So rather than having only silver or no status, by pooling we can get benefits we would never before have been able to attain if we now focus most of our travels on Virgin rather than splitting it with Qantas. I have no doubt people in bigger families who might perhaps fly less frequently will also consider doing the same.

John Borghetti being ex-Qantas, clearly understands how the business works and is hitting Qantas where it hurts. This will not just be a slap in the face for Qantas, but a punch in the gut and kick up the butt as well.

The slap in the face was the strategy to target business/government customers. The punch in the stomach was the strategy to capture whole families to encourage them to fly only Virgin. The kick up the butt is coming, and it comes in the form of the alliance with Singapore Airlines.

I could go on for ages about how that alliance will ultimately transform the company but I'll save that for another day.

 

[nlagalle]

"Qantas relaxed about Virgin revamp" - they will be famous last words, made just before QFF program started to tank.

you think the QFF is going to tank? seriously i think you are pipe dreaming there...

The way I see it, Qantas being in such a strong position, has so much more to lose. I can't see how you can 'revamp' your program and effectively reduce benefits for your FF customers at the same time your main competitor (for domestic flights in oz at least) is increasing benefits without experiencing a significant loss in market share.

I think John Borghetti has demonstrated a strong sense of business acumen. He's targeting the government and business customers which deliver the highest margins. You can see this where he has increased the frequency of flights on a major government route between Canberra and Sydney AND now has the airline also providing complimentary food and drinks for that route.

seriously it is one route... You realise that QF have always had complimentary food??? nothing new

This starts to even out the field for Canberra based government employes when consiering their flight options.

I'm betting most will still fly QF given the chance

For the broader business customer base, the status match has literally cut the gold (or platinum) handcuffs off existing Qantas business customers. He's also done this after delivering most of the lounge upgrades at major airports.

THey still have a long way to go in the lounge stakes.. they have only done up 3 so far...

What really elevates his strategy from just 'great' to 'awesome', is how he's trying to capture families as well. Benefits such as the 'pooling' of SCs and points means that I will be strongly urging my partner to fly Virgin where prices are similar so we can pool our points. We mostly travel for leisure, and when we do 90% we travel together. So rather than having only silver or no status, by pooling we can get benefits we would never before have been able to attain if we now focus most of our travels on Virgin rather than splitting it with Qantas. I have no doubt people in bigger families who might perhaps fly less frequently will also consider doing the same.

Personally I don't like the idea of pooling Status credits. They are meant to be earned by your bum on a seat, not someone else. To me it cheapens the staus.

John Borghetti being ex-Qantas, clearly understands how the business works and is hitting Qantas where it hurts. This will not just be a slap in the face for Qantas, but a punch in the gut and kick up the butt as well.

The slap in the face was the strategy to target business/government customers. The punch in the stomach was the strategy to capture whole families to encourage them to fly only Virgin. The kick up the butt is coming, and it comes in the form of the alliance with Singapore Airlines.

I could go on for ages about how that alliance will ultimately transform the company but I'll save that for another day.

VA are getting there slowly but still have a long way to go. They aren't in an alliance which is worth more than partnerships.

More importantly they also need to turn their losses into profits, or they will need to trim back on things. they can't keep losing money hand over fist.

 

[ketsuzei]

I'd be interested to see a thread on AFF about how consumption patterns have been changed by the status match, as I reckon it could be useful to both sides.

Just as an example, from my own tiny perspective, which probably isn't worth extrapolating from, after seeing my new Platinum status yesterday, I bought a CBR-SYD round trip on Virgin that I would have bought on Qantas otherwise, so in this case I'd call it:

VA: +$233, QF: -$316

My decision was probably also influenced by the fact that I'm already QF WP and won't make it meaningfully further this year.

I'll be making different hotel decisions and so on, too, but not sure how easy that would be to quantify.

Anyway, just an idea.

 

[anat0l]

Who says I don't use Optus? Just because Optus is now a partner with QF, and you can earn QF points, should / would not make the average punter choose Optus over the other telecommunication providers: value, plans, coverage etc would be factors that I would consider much more important than the ability to earn QF FF points...so I still say "Big deal"

Fine, but you never shared that initially. Some people will reap benefit from the deal because they are with Optus particularly not because they'll get some QFF points out of it. And this is an argument about Optus as an effective telco, not the new tie-up per se.

Did I say it was the absolute killer? You are putting words in my mouth!

Hey, my sister is a dentist, not me, so I ain't putting anything in your mouth

More seriously, you can't say what I stated was a complete misunderstanding of what you said originally. You said that VA have "really scored" with ATA. You didn't say that was for you, let alone how ever many people participated in the other thread. I think, and this is an opinion, for all of those people who took up the offer to go to VFF - not just those members on AFF - their incentive to try was an impressive line up of benefits (of which part of that included ATA). Not just ATA alone, as your simplistic single line quote may have implied.

You are entitled to your opinion, and me to mine. In my book, status matching does overcome some (obviously, not the large QF points balances) of the reasons described by Mr Hickey for not jumping ship, otherwise why would Velocity bother status matching?

That is why I said Mr Hickey's statement was not completely wrong! You've just conceded that status matching can only overcome some of the reasons. The reason why you do status matching is because there are enough reasons to do it that most people (you'd hope) will jump. But Mr Hickey is still somewhat correct in his reasons why some people will not. Those reasons alone does not make the whole status match exercise by VA pointless. Just as there's a small chance if you wake up today, you might get hurt. Whether or not at the end of the day you are in one piece, that doesn't make getting up to face the day pointless. My statement was not meant to imply that the status matching was a pointless exercise, merely that Mr Hickey does have a point of note as to why not every QFF elite member has jumped at the VFF status match.

Arrogance, patronising can be seen through my thick glasses...anyway, I'm not the only one to see these features in the article. Again, I stressed that I did say"...if the article reflects Mr Hickey's views accurately..."

Well I obviously was not the only one to see otherwise. So help me out here...

I have stated my opinion which obviously is DIFFERENT to yours, and a verbose argument is NOT going to change my opinion moving forwards....

Who said I was trying to change your opinion? At least you've acknowledged that another opinion can validly exist.

The verbosity is a weakness, not a people changing device/technique.


----------
This anat0l content, if it must be known,
Was sent via Aust Freq Fly app, but not from an iPhone.

 

[JohnK]

Still waiting for QF's serious response to the latest VA enhancements.

Moaners and whingers (im in cat 1) get over it, if you want to abandon ship, go for your life but do it quietly please, im getting a QF/VA headache...

You better have some Paracetemol as it looks like being around for a while.

Then add no dividends for the 3 years that AJ has been at the helm.

That is a little unfair. Put the QF and VA graphs next to/on top of another to get an idea of the true picture of the share price and dividends over the past 3 year.

What is it with this obsession with ATA being the be-all-end-all motherload of all elite benefits:?:

No different to the obsession about priority boarding. I don't need priority boarding but I would love Anytime Lounge Access.

 

[pauly7]

The article doesn't really portray that feeling that VA "can't do anything to us" (QF). If anything it just says, "Sure VA have done something. They haven't killed us, though." And, they're probably right. At best, VA have chopped off an arm - at best. That's still quite a win for VA, but it doesn't mean QF are dead or severely crippled. Once QF see more blood, then and only then will there be a true conceding of any sort from QF.

Love your story

Using your analogy I'd actually argue that VA haven't cut anything yet, rather they have selected their knife (ie shown their hand) and are walking over to Qantas with the intent to cut off an arm.

Qantas knows they are coming and are clearly planning something to counter. They are an old canny and extremely aggressive competitor. Just because a bunch of aviation nerds like me don't know what's coming doesn't mean they aren't working on it.... Some of the egos on here

So they can deflect, they can skip to the side when VA stabs or they can counter attack. From QF past and nature I'd say the latter!

And the biggest thing everyone keeps skipping over lightly is VA's health (financial). Yes they have the knife, but when they picked it up they cut themselves and are bleeding.....

Analogy over!!

 

[777]

Lot's of debate about arrogance in this thread but "complacency" was the word that sprung to mind for me.

 

[drron]

First I doubt we here on AFF are typical of travellers,even regular ones.Even if every AFF WP defects I doubt it would add up to a significant percentage of their WPs.
Second why would you give your competitor a heads up on whats coming?
Third if you announce to AFF that you plan changes to your FF scheme half of us would immediately think benefits are going to be cut and would still be ungrateful if they were increased.The other half would expect the world and therefore would be upset they didn't get all they wanted.
Fourth.The VBA share price is about 15% of its high in early 2007.The QF share price is 25% of its high at the same time.

I think that the VA euphoria is a little overdone and it will be interesting to see the comments in 12 months time.
Just my humble and possibly totally erroneous opinion.

 

[pauly7]

Lot's of debate about arrogance in this thread but "complacency" was the word that sprung to mind for me.

So you have insight into the details of the QF business strategy? I am a keen observer with some internal contacts and I don't know. Would be keen to hear!

 

[Noob]

So you have insight into the details of the QF business strategy? I am a keen observer with some internal contacts and I don't know. Would be keen to hear!

Maybe they don't have one?

In all seriousness, 777 was talking about the article, he didn't claim to know the details of the QF business strategy...