Qantas seating changes! No more First on 747s! New A380s without F!

[winfred]

I hope that prediction that demand for premium class seats will remind low. Worst that could happen is demand picks up quickly and they up the prices and no chance of upgrade or getting award seats.

 

[NM]

So if anyone wants to fly QF F on a 747-400, you had better do it soon!

With the cabin changes planned to start at the end of 2011 and not completing until 2013, there is no need to rush.

 

[Mal]

With the cabin changes planned to start at the end of 2011 and not completing until 2013, there is no need to rush.

And the plans aren't set in concrete. I wouldn't be too surprised if they changed around a little before being fully implemented....

 

[Flying Fox]

And the plans aren't set in concrete. I wouldn't be too surprised if they changed around a little before being fully implemented....

Good point. I'm expecting some form of back-flip one the economy gets better.

 

[serfty]

The 744 plans are set:

... the three-class configuration will offer 359 seats (58 Business, 36 Premium Economy and 265 Economy), an increase of 52 seats overall ...

Hmmm ... this increase is in relation to the "Pacific Configuration" [307: 14P66J40PY187Y], not the "Kangaroo" [351: 14P52J32PY255Y].

I would imagine they could fit 14 MkII Skybeds in Zone A.

The MKI have a 60" pitch, the MKII have 80".

This may cause some issues with the Upper deck due to the exits, if continuing to contain Skybeds, they would lose at least 4 seats, probably 8 from the current 24.

Assume 8, so that's 30 (14+16) , leaving 28 in Zone B at 4 rows of 7. They could reduce the size of or eliminate the area currently used for the First Galley to get the additional 120" or so required.

http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/flying/inTheAir/ourAircraft/744-14P52J32PY255Y.pdf

 

[harvyk]

Here is my very long term prediction... I haven't attached a timeframe to this as I don't know how long it'll take.

1. First will disappear from all airlines
2. Most if not all airlines which had First will gain PE...
3. Some marketing guru will decide that First class actually has a nice sound ring to the name, they will start marketing their business class as "First", of course it's still just business class.
4. Other airlines will catch on, thus what we know as Business Class will become known as First Class. (Think something like the BusinessFirst branding) by this time most people will have forgotten what First Class was really like. It may become a "back in my day" type memory, but nothing more.
5. PE will become called Business Class as again it sounds better than a class with the word ecconomy in it.

Thus they have effectively down graded both Business Class and First Class, and yet no one will mind... If the airlines simply took stuff away from a class people would complain, by removing the class of service all together it may annoy some people who liked that class of service, but they probably won't lose any customers in doing so.

Just my 2c...

 

[oz_mark]

Here is my very long term prediction... I haven't attached a timeframe to this as I don't know how long it'll take.

1. First will disappear from all airlines
2. Most if not all airlines which had First will gain PE...
3. Some marketing guru will decide that First class actually has a nice sound ring to the name, they will start marketing their business class as "First", of course it's still just business class.
4. Other airlines will catch on, thus what we know as Business Class will become known as First Class. (Think something like the BusinessFirst branding) by this time most people will have forgotten what First Class was really like. It may become a "back in my day" type memory, but nothing more.
5. PE will become called Business Class as again it sounds better than a class with the word ecconomy in it.

I don't know they will go so far as renaming the classes, but bear in mind at some levels, business class is as good as first class was, say 10 years ago. Maybe not in all facets, but in enough.

Similarly, PE is arguably in some aspects where Business was before they started adding beds.

The problem, I think, is that to some extent, the airlines got into a feature war, improving on the product on offer, to the extent that it was not a sustainable offering.

It may be good for people to upgrade into those classes, but this is not the same as people buying tickets, and it is the level of tickets that can be sold for cash that determine the viabaility of the class.

 

[NM]

This may cause some issues with the Upper deck due to the exits, if continuing to contain Skybeds, they would lose at least 4 seats, probably 8 from the current 24.

Is it beyond consideration for 36 Y+ seats on the upper deck? Then 18 J in zone A (3 rows of 2x2 and 1 row of 2x2x2) and 40J in Zone B/C.

 

[jamesatfish]

I'm actually quite saddened by this announcement, and by the general global trend to kick First out the door in place of more Business / PE seating. Losing First is losing the romance out of long-haul flight.

First - and specifically QF First - has always been something for me to aspire to when flying - a privilege to be able to book, an aspiration when you've applied for the J-F upgrade lottery, a fond memory when you're doing trans-con flights on AA MD-80s. I don't greatly care that QF Business on the A380 is, for all rational purposes, as good as the First offering on the 747 - it's just a means of transportation, not a special experience.

When I took my first solo self-funded trip with Qantas (flying MEL-AKL-LAX in Y), I got to glance into the First cabin and see what rewards might follow from hard work, good fortune and success in business. First seemed like a little exclusive club - just 14 equally fortunate souls sharing an experience that seemed to me as good as walking through the pearly gates, without the inconvenient death part. Being able to one day afford to turn left at that door was a dream that helped drive me in what I do.

Although First will survive on the A380, at least for the moment, it's a very different experience on that aircraft. With the individual compartments you lose the social aspect of the cabin - it's difficult to share the experience with family and friends on the same flight, and there's almost no opportunity to strike up a conversation with your fellow passengers. I've had some great 747 F flights with two couples able to sit across from one another, cafe style, and enjoy conversation and company as part of the flight experience, and short of flying private this is an experience we'll lose when the F seats make way for skybeds.

Although I was too young to have the opportunity, I really regret not being able to fly Concorde when it was in service. It seems like we've taken a big step backwards from where we were when that aircraft was flying - we lost a special aviation experience and there's nothing out there that even comes close to what we had nearly 30 years ago. In the end we lost that experience to economic rationalism and cost cutting, and aviation is poorer as a result.

Phasing out First seems to be the same step - losing the romance of long-haul flight in place of more seats for a given aircraft, more revenue for the airlines and more profit for the shareholders. I'm sure it's a rational business decision on behalf of QF, and for the majority of passengers it would be a bonus to have better availability in PE and J, but to me it's just another sad step backwards from the heights of the late 20th century to the sanitised, fiscally driven, nanny-state 21st.

 

[harvyk]

I don't know they will go so far as renaming the classes, but bear in mind at some levels, business class is as good as first class was, say 10 years ago. Maybe not in all facets, but in enough.

I think they will, marketing will win out, especially if there are no longer any First class airlines anymore.

Given that J is nearly as good as F was 10 years ago it's not that much of a stretch to imagine F being phased out, and J becoming the new F. It's a way of airlines scaling back the improvements without upsetting too many people.

 

[serfty]

Is it beyond consideration for 36 Y+ seats on the upper deck? Then 18 J in zone A (3 rows of 2x2 and 1 row of 2x2x2) and 40J in Zone B/C.

Upper deck for PE is conceivable; AirNZ have 5 rows starting from the upper exit doors and back at 3x2 configuration.

With Zone A, the F seats being replaced are 79" 'pitch' but there is a significant overlap (~30") used with the "single file" window seats at rows 3 and 4 enabling the 4 rows.

To go 2x2 at 80" pitch really only gives enough room for two rows of 4 and one of 6.

Maybe by reducing the Skybed Mk II pitch to 71" they could fit the 18 seats.

 

[NM]

Maybe they could get two rows of 6 and then one row or 4 making 16

 

[anat0l]

I think they will, marketing will win out, especially if there are no longer any First class airlines anymore.

Given that J is nearly as good as F was 10 years ago it's not that much of a stretch to imagine F being phased out, and J becoming the new F. It's a way of airlines scaling back the improvements without upsetting too many people.

That is a rather interesting point.

How could one significantly improve F service now to make it a much better class than current J? It is only the subtle differences which make it really good, e.g.:

• Better food (perhaps!) and drink (again, big perhaps - e.g. would you rather have Taittinger than Charles Heidsieck NV )
• Access to better lounges (if no status, although in some cases there are some "strictly F only" lounges)
• Access to particular ground benefits (e.g. concierge, F check-in)
• More exclusive cabin (e.g. sitting in a cabin of 14 instead of one of 32 or 56) and more personal service than J
• A fully made bed, e.g. mattress, duvet, doona etc.. Not sure how many J classes (OK there are a few, e.g. VS, NZ) that have a full bed set; most would just give you a pillow and blanket.
• In some airlines, full suites rather than just another seat.
• More redeemable points and status credits (or whatever equivalent currency)

Looking at that list, some could pare down those benefits by:

• Having elite status
• Debating whether a benefit is truly significant compared to J, esp. in view of the cost differential; similarly, whether a lack of that benefit in view of the cost differential or other factors is justifiable / tolerable to have J instead
• Debating whether a benefit is exploitable for their needs

It just seems odd the way things are progressing that we see F being phased out and J becoming the new "most comfortable way to fly", which was never the way it was meant to be in the first place (but then again, a lot of things have changed about the way we fly in several decades). I would think it silly (although not unfounded) if the marketing gurus will later rebrand the now J as the new F and the now Y+ as the new J (and market it appropriately to the target markets) - I guess this may not come as this has implications (for example, some corporate travel policies allow J travel for international sectors but not F; changing the now J to F would obviously "negatively" implicate those said travellers. But by that time perhaps Y+ will get better reclining, or even lie-flat/full-flat seats.... ).

 

[simongr]

For me the primary differentials between J and F are the service and the peacefulness.

Even in J the service seems hurried whereas in F everything is relaxed. What that means to me is that F is more than a seat - it is a journey and some people need/want that.

If J becomes the new F then basically I think Pvt Jets become the new F and the net effect both environmentally and economically are poor.

 

[Flying Fox]

I think a couple of airlines do it but I like the idea of a driver to and from the airport with F tickets.

 

[Dave Noble]

I think a couple of airlines do it but I like the idea of a driver to and from the airport with F tickets.

Business class passenger also tend to get the service too

Dave

 

[anat0l]

Business class passenger also tend to get the service too

Well only on EK AFAICT.

VA and VS doesn't count because they don't have a F offering.

I guess the only other thing is that F gets sleeper suits and better amenity kits than J. However, that too is rapidly changing (and certainly different on airlines with J as their top offering).

 

[Cyclogenesis]

An interesting question is: Is there an pair of airlines where one's F offering is similar or worse than another's J offering?

For example who has flown AA's flagship service first? and is it as good as QF J on the a380?

 

[anat0l]

An interesting question is: Is there an pair of airlines where one's F offering is similar or worse than another's J offering?

For example who has flown AA's flagship service first? and is it as good as QF J on the a380?

There are quite a few people who will tell you that QF F on 744 bites the dust compared to most J in the world.

Also, any domestic F on a US-based airline is almost without fail worse than QF J; again some will beg to differ on this one but there you go. (Of course, comparing the two is not apples and apples....)

Some international F of the US-based airlines doesn't look all that exciting and food offering a similar fate, so it would really come down to the ground service being offered.

LH F in the sky (at least for now) isn't all that great, but on the ground it easily holds the trumps (with the possible exception of EK).

Apart from that, I guess that's got me stumped. Although, it's still not really like for like since prices still vary a lot between offerings (although it is odd to see some J being as expensive as some F).

 

[DTM1]

For me the primary differentials between J and F are the service and the peacefulness.

Even in J the service seems hurried whereas in F everything is relaxed. What that means to me is that F is more than a seat - it is a journey and some people need/want that.

If J becomes the new F then basically I think Pvt Jets become the new F and the net effect both environmentally and economically are poor.

I think the pace in F is more a factor of the crewax ratio, rather than anything else. If the airline wanted to increase crew numbers, they could adjust the pace.

I know, not on their radar, but my 2c for what it's worth.