Qantas surveying members about spend-based status attainment

[serfty]

QFF. It hasn’t followed VA before. Why start now?

Of course Qantas have.

They copied Velocity's 750 and 1500 mile zones, up from 600, 1200 etc.

 

[Supersonic Swinger]

So? Why would QF want to follow VA? QF is the market leader, and while QF and VA compete as airlines, I don’t think Velocity even holds a candle to QFF. It hasn’t followed VA before. Why start now? As the saying goes, never interrupt your opponent while they’re making a mistake. VAs changes achieve specific outcomes for VA the airline but overall it reduces value in Velocity. Quite the opposite of what QF would be seeking to do.



It’s been about a week and you’re calling it? Everything I’ve seen and read has been intensively negative, with large majorities saying they will either leave BA entirely or accept a status downgrade. Even BA wouldn’t know the outcome yet - neither would VA for that matter.



Do you actually understand how much QF (and similar companies) research such things? Happens all the time, doesn’t mean they’re going to happen.

What seems like a mistake to individual flyers doesn't when an airline is looking at the program overall. I have seen a lot of paywalled analysis from the likes of EIU, CAPA and the big strategy consulting firms which show that this is an industry trend which is not going away. Even from this Forbes article (Loyalty Program Trends In 2024: What To Expect And Watch For) one of the trends they call out is:

"Revenue-Based Earning
Many airlines and hotels have recently made changes to better align their loyalty programs with their corporate mandates to turn a profit. In the past, the majority of airlines focused on the number of miles you’d flown in a given year and hotels focused on the number of nights you’ve stayed. But now the more popular metric is the revenue you’re bringing to the company... Expect the trend of linking the amount of money spent to the rewards and status earned to continue throughout this year and beyond."

I'm not calling the BA changes. When DL announced their revenue based earning model, the fallout was such that they watered down some of the criteria to what is in place now, and that has been operating that way for over a year now. BA might reduce some of their thresholds they have announced, but much like when Finnair went revenue based with Avios last year, they will retain the revenue based concept.

Sadly the days of the Loyalty division operating independently of Revenue Management are behind us. When QF has worked out the 'enhancements' they can make to best drive revenue, I have no doubt they will roll them out, dressed up in the appropriate PR spin.

 

[Himeno]

Sadly the days of the Loyalty division operating independently of Revenue Management are behind us. When QF has worked out the 'enhancements' they can make to best drive revenue, I have no doubt they will roll them out, dressed up in the appropriate PR spin.

Then they can be shocked by the amount of people who will no longer interact with the program.

 

[drron]

Most of the people who are members of QFF are not OWE or even OWS unlike the people complaining of these changes. Just look at the profiles of those complaining in this thread. Then the links to travel bloggers who quite probably have more to lose. Every one singing from their own songbook.
As a NB who can’t access the awards he wants I think it might level the playing field a little so I might have a chance of getting awards I actually want not what the privileged think that I should be happy with.
A revenue based system is coming like it or not. It might take some time but it will occur.

 

[justinbrett]

What seems like a mistake to individual flyers doesn't when an airline is looking at the program overall. I have seen a lot of paywalled analysis from the likes of EIU, CAPA and the big strategy consulting firms which show that this is an industry trend which is not going away. Even from this Forbes article (Loyalty Program Trends In 2024: What To Expect And Watch For) one of the trends they call out is:

"Revenue-Based Earning
Many airlines and hotels have recently made changes to better align their loyalty programs with their corporate mandates to turn a profit. In the past, the majority of airlines focused on the number of miles you’d flown in a given year and hotels focused on the number of nights you’ve stayed. But now the more popular metric is the revenue you’re bringing to the company... Expect the trend of linking the amount of money spent to the rewards and status earned to continue throughout this year and beyond."

I'm not calling the BA changes. When DL announced their revenue based earning model, the fallout was such that they watered down some of the criteria to what is in place now, and that has been operating that way for over a year now. BA might reduce some of their thresholds they have announced, but much like when Finnair went revenue based with Avios last year, they will retain the revenue based concept.

Sadly the days of the Loyalty division operating independently of Revenue Management are behind us. When QF has worked out the 'enhancements' they can make to best drive revenue, I have no doubt they will roll them out, dressed up in the appropriate PR spin.

Just going around in circles now. QFF is already structured to entice spend, even if it isn’t strictly linked directly to revenue. It’s arguably better as it allows QF to fine tune status to specific routes and cabins. Someone spending 2K on return discount economy flights to LAX is making the company far less money than someone spending 2K on return business class between SYD-MEL. There is a loophole with some partner earning (eg AA domestic F) but that’s easily fixed. I actually think a blunt revenue system would be a step backwards for QF. Further enhancements to squeeze more profit? Sure. Following the pack and going to a flat revenue (not profit) model? I don’t think so.

Most of the people who are members of QFF are not OWE or even OWS unlike the people complaining of these changes. Just look at the profiles of those complaining in this thread. Then the links to travel bloggers who quite probably have more to lose. Every one singing from their own songbook.
As a NB who can’t access the awards he wants I think it might level the playing field a little so I might have a chance of getting awards I actually want not what the privileged think that I should be happy with.
A revenue based system is coming like it or not. It might take some time but it will occur.

That’s just confusing the issue. For one, revenue based status isn’t going to help your reward availability at all. Fully dynamic rewards might but that’s not what’s being discussed. A lot of people are earning points through ground programs (eg credit cards) which is causing an oversupply of points but that’s has nothing to do with status.

By total membership elites are a small minority of the QFF program, but in terms of pax it’s quite high (I believe VH quoted 30% of pax are elites). For pax who use the program for ground spend and don’t fly often, that’s why they created Points Club. Possibly they could merge it into the main program but again they would lose a lot of the highly specific levers they have by dumbing down the program.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That’s just confusing the issue. For one, revenue based status isn’t going to help your reward availability at all.

I don’t think it’s an absolute ‘not at all’.

Elites get earlier access to awards. Halve the numbers and it might leave better availability for lower levels.

Platinums also have the ability to request revenue seats be converted to awards. Reduce that and it leaves seats which can be either sold cheaper to the public, or which will later be available for awards, or upgrades, to lower level members.

With BA I understand top elites could change or cancel awards for free. Reduce those numbers and the pool of speculative award bookings may reduce, freeing up seats for others.

 

[justinbrett]

I don’t think it’s an absolute ‘not at all’.

Elites get earlier access to awards. Halve the numbers and it might leave better availability for lower levels.

Platinums also have the ability to request revenue seats be converted to awards. Reduce that and it leaves seats which can be either sold cheaper to the public, or which will later be available for awards, or upgrades, to lower level members.

With BA I understand top elites could change or cancel awards for free. Reduce those numbers and the pool of speculative award bookings may reduce, freeing up seats for others.

Well I think most of that is based on the old procedures, since now the good seats are not routinely released as they once were, and are now done in batches at various times.

The WP release - marginal benefit and no guarantee that’s sticking around anyway, it’s already been curtailed quite a bit. Either way they’re not coming at the expense of lower tier members.

P1 is a different story but those P1 members will likely retain status under any new system, so it doesn’t really change there either.

Again, if QF wanted to reduce the number of elites it wouldn’t be running two DSC promos a year. Clearly it’s quite happy with the number of elites.

 

[RooFlyer]

I assume that’s at least four.

Yes, in total, but I was referring to just including one or two QF flights in the around the world I was discussing.

 

[scottz95]

Throwing a view out there for a consideration Qantas would need to make. Given how QFF is often seen as a moat for protecting Government travel revenue from moving to VA, moving to a purely revenue based program may harm this lucrative revenue stream for the airline. As many would guess, AusGovt fares with Qantas are generally cheaper than published fares so if QF were to adopt a fully revenue based model, it would become dramatically harder for Government employees to earn/retain status and may start to move spending away from Qantas overall.

A similar arguement could be said about corporate travel deals. Many are now aligned to BFOD and have set +/- dollar limits on alternative options (e.g. a very large mining entity allows $150 +/- on international J fares so staff can go non-preferred airline or routing within $150 of BFOD). If QFF makes it too hard to earn status, and they aren’t the actual cheapest fare, there’s a good chance business travellers will start looking at other factors to determine who to spend with (e.g. Timing, Onboard Product, etc), of which is very subjective to the individual.

Given the program is already loosely profitability based (e.g. less for discounted tickets, more for full fare or higher cabins), which has arguably been Qantas’ focus for a number of years now, they may not want to play with this too much.

However, I could definitely see an uptick in the required flights on QF metal to earn status at all tiers taking effect to rule out cheap partner tickets as a practical way to earn status e.g. AA J fares in the US can have really good earns for relatively cheap prices. Such a change would benefit Qantas more as it converts more revenue into their pockets, rather than revenue that might’ve been otherwise sent to competing airlines and in turn, uplift revenue and likely profits from elite pax.

 

[qreality]

I think changing to revenue-based model in itself is not the problem - it is the threshold being set to reach the elite levels.

British Airwyas set the threshold at such a nose-bleed level it requires a spend of over 20K GBP (40K AUD roughly) to hit Gold (OWE). THAT is the problem. The British Airways Gold-level is more like Qantas Platinum One-level of spend. Current F-lounges will need to be reduced in size significantly. AY's threshold for OWE is also crazily high, not as crazy as BA but not something that many self-funded travellers will be able to achieve - my quick calculation shows that one needs to spend easily 12K-15K euro (probably lower if all was spent on AY) to hit OWE.

If most airlines are
- moving towards revenue-baesd model with nose-bleed threshold to hit elite status level,
- making rewards seats impossible to snag, and
- setting crazy lifetime elite status (e.g. half a million GBP (for BA), almost 38 years of platinum-equivalent (for AY), or 60+ years of Plat (for QF),

the most likely customers behaviour would be to ditch FF programs altogether as there are hardly any benefits whatsoever anymore. There is no need to be loyal to any one airline as any reasonable benefits are so unattainable.

I would rather fly whichever airlines with best services and best connections depending on where I am going. Mind you, there are many budget airlines with business-like seats anyway.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think changing to revenue-based model in itself is not the problem - it is the threshold being set to reach the elite levels.

British Airwyas set the threshold at such a nose-bleed level it requires a spend of over 20K GBP (40K AUD roughly) to hit Gold (OWE). THAT is the problem. The British Airways Gold-level is more like Qantas Platinum One-level of spend. Current F-lounges will need to be reduced in size significantly. AY's threshold for OWE is also crazily high, not as crazy as BA but not something that many self-funded travellers will be able to achieve - my quick calculation shows that one needs to spend easily 12K-15K euro (probably lower if all was spent on AY) to hit OWE.

If most airlines are
- moving towards revenue-baesd model with nose-bleed threshold to hit elite status level,
- making rewards seats impossible to snag, and
- setting crazy lifetime elite status (e.g. half a million GBP (for BA), almost 38 years of platinum-equivalent (for AY), or 60+ years of Plat (for QF),

the most likely customers behaviour would be to ditch FF programs altogether as there are hardly any benefits whatsoever anymore. There is no need to be loyal to any one airline as any reasonable benefits are so unattainable.

I would rather fly whichever airlines with best services and best connections depending on where I am going. Mind you, there are many budget airlines with business-like seats anyway.

Won’t it make award seats easier to get? If status and miles runners stop, there’ll be less points in the system vying for the same awards?

 

[mviy]

I still have a big stockpile of points that I can spend on return J/F to LHR if I can somehow get it.

 

[Lynda2475]

Won’t it make award seats easier to get? If status and miles runners stop, there’ll be less points in the system vying for the same awards?

Status runs are about SCs not points. Most people earn more QFF points from non flying activities i.e. CCs and EDR so there will be just as many people with points to burn, just fewer with (in theory) earlier access to Classic Award.

Yet as already observed several times up thread post covid QF havent returned to their previous predictable award seat releases with access being drip fed according to status. Instead they have had random bulk drops with media announcements that gives everyone equal opportunity provided they have the points to burn at short notice and are quick.

If status is too expensive, fewer people will direct their discretional spend to QF making them less profitable, which may cause them to reduce flight frequency and with fewer seats for sale, likelihood of excess seats for awards reduces.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Status runs are about SCs not points. Most people earn more QFF points from non flying activities i.e. CCs and EDR so there will be just as many people with points to burn, just fewer with (in theory) earlier access to Classic Award.

Yet as already observed several times up thread post covid QF havent returned to their previous predictable award seat releases with access being drip fed according to status. Instead they have had random bulk drops with media announcements that gives everyone equal opportunity provided they have the points to burn at short notice and are quick.

If status is too expensive, fewer people will direct their discretional spend to QF making them less profitable, which may cause them to reduce flight frequency and with fewer seats for sale, likelihood of excess seats for awards reduces.

I was thinking the status runners, who also accrue the accompanying points, will be fewer. So less competition for the award seats.

If airlines claim that status runners aren’t making them profit… they’re drinking it in the lounge, maybe they won’t make a difference to the bottom line, or frequency? Plus, without needing to pay $100 for a bottle of champagne for someone on a $50 ticket… maybe they can make airfares cheaper… and new people will direct their spend to airlines?

 

[mviy]

I have got far more points from CC churning than doing status runs.

Making status more expensive will have minimal impact on how many points I have and I am sure many others.

Status runs often provide lots of SCs and comparatively little points compared with booking say direct long haul.

 

[Lynda2475]

The points accrued on most status runs are not generally that high.

A SC run from SYD to AKL via OOL and MEL during a DSC can easily get you 580-600SCs but only about 17k points (which is only enough for a SYD-MEL RTN in whY).

In my observation most P1s are not P1 due to a heap of status runs, but have travel patterns that would see them flying similar frequency anyway.

A decent portion of WPs probably do include a SC run, but IMO only really worthwhile if you are at least flying enough to qualify SG anyway.

Based on the year in review emails sent out by QF in early December and shared on AFF, one needed only earn 170k points to be in the top 5% of points earners. I doubt too many self funded members are earning the majority of their points from flying if they are in the top 5%.

 

[qreality]

I was thinking the status runners, who also accrue the accompanying points, will be fewer. So less competition for the award seats.

If airlines claim that status runners aren’t making them profit… they’re drinking it in the lounge, maybe they won’t make a difference to the bottom line, or frequency? Plus, without needing to pay $100 for a bottle of champagne for someone on a $50 ticket… maybe they can make airfares cheaper… and new people will direct their spend to airlines?

Interesting observation regarding whether status runners make airlines any profit.
Even if that is the case, status runners would have paid enough cash for the airlines to cover the basic operational costs, without which, no profit will be made, no?

 

[Lynda2475]

If airlines claim that status runners aren’t making them profit…

Have they actually claimed this, though?

In my observations during DSC promos there are few sale fares available.

If anything QF DSC promos encourage more non-essential flight purchases due to perceived benefits, even though many may not fly enough to significantly benefit from the status.

they’re drinking it in the lounge,

Maybe, but not everyone drinks alcohol or is a big consumer of such.

If it is a morning domestic flight alcohol is off the table, even after 11am many find the offerings uninspiring. Internationally you dont want to get too tipsy lest you are denied boarding.

Plus, without needing to pay $100 for a bottle of champagne for someone on a $50 ticket…

I think your maths is a little off.

If AFF is any indicator the most popular status runs are across the ditch (NZ), unless you were on QF3 its not likely QF would serve any champagne or sparkling wines on the 737s approaching that value. Often they only have 1 bottle, of good stuff and it is unlikely all the 12 J seats are on classic awards.

Also, even if doing a status run as a Points Club member on a classic award the taxes and fees are likely to be more than $50 even on the shortest domestic options, certainly guaranteed to be more on anything international.

maybe they can make airfares cheaper… and new people will direct their spend to airlines?

Sounds like you want QF to become a LCC. We already have a couple of those domestically, and more internationally, QF will charge what the market is prepared to pay they can already sell the super price sensitive FF seats on Jetstar.

 

[33kft]

It's a rhetorical question to which there is no good answer.

Status running is simply earning enough SCs to be awarded a status level by a given deadline. Some might try to demonise the practice in some way but end of the day, it is simply flying sufficiently to meet an SC target.

Those who abhor the practice will likely find a way to paint it as some sort of parasitic loss maker for airlines. I would suggest it is the sudden and very short lived concern for said airlines balance sheet that is most notable.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Have they actually claimed this, though?

In my observations during DSC promos there are few sale fares available.

If anything QF DSC promos encourage more non-essential flight purchases due to perceived benefits, even though many may not fly enough to significantly benefit from the status.



Maybe, but not everyone drinks alcohol or is a big consumer of such.

If it is a morning domestic flight alcohol is off the table, even after 11am many find the offerings uninspiring. Internationally you dont want to get too tipsy lest you are denied boarding.



I think your maths is a little off.

If AFF is any indicator the most popular status runs are across the ditch (NZ), unless you were on QF3 its not likely QF would serve any champagne or sparkling wines on the 737s approaching that value. Often they only have 1 bottle, of good stuff and it is unlikely all the 12 J seats are on classic awards.

Also, even if doing a status run as a Points Club member on a classic award the taxes and fees are likely to be more than $50 even on the shortest domestic options, certainly guaranteed to be more on anything international.


Sounds like you want QF to become a LCC. We already have a couple of those domestically, and more internationally, QF will charge what the market is prepared to pay they can already sell the super price sensitive FF seats on Jetstar.

Talking about the lounge here… you fly domestically in the US and get cheap status. Then you fly a £27 fare on BA but consume a £50 bottle of champagne in the galleries First lounge.

Or the equivalent on QF is that you buy an economy fare to bali on jetstar, or a domestic JQi flight but drink and eat your way through the menu in the F lounge.

There was an anecdotal report on another forum that Finnair identified the exact issue, above, as one of the reasons why they went to a revenue-based model. People eating and drinking more than they brought in.