Qantas to operate 2 evacuation flights from Lebanon via Cyprus to Sydney

[Quickstatus]

I also wonder what message the government paid evacuation will be giving people in a similar position in the future.

Message was sent loud and clear in 2006. Debt raised against cost of flights then written off

 

[Cloud9]

Message was sent loud and clear in 2006. Debt raised against cost of flights then written off

Great that we have no national debt or deficit then...

 

[kangarooflyer88]

What system does the US use? For instance, what details of US citizens living in Australia are 'known' to the US government that might contact them in the event of a crisis? ?

The program the U.S. government uses is the Smart Traveler Enrolment Program (STEP):

https://mytravel.state.gov/s/step

I should also point out that the government of Canada also has a similar service too:

Registration of Canadians Abroad - travel.gc.ca

Government of Canada's official one-stop-shop for comprehensive international travel information.

travel.gc.ca

Additionally, it shouldn’t be too hard to keep people notified. For instance, to vote in Canadian Federal and Provincial elections I have to register for the overseas voters register. Doing so means I get a mail in ballot when an election is called. Crucially the government checks in from time to time to ensure they got the correct details (and whether I need to remain on the register). Surely we could have a similar thing here. One must also wonder too how hard it would be for the government to know where you are travelling to. After all your passport has to be provided for overseas travel, surely an Australian government system gets pinged somewhere. I cannot see why these alerts cannot be made automatic

 

[Sprucegoose]

Maybe it's just me, but I think there is a HELL of a difference between the BEF at the end of the phoney war and a bunch of private citizens who should have had the common sense to get themselves out of dodge before the taxpayer had to step in to bail them out.

I agree with you. I don't want to unfairly characterise the people now deciding to repatriate but allowing Hezbollah to establish a state within a state has proven to be disastrous. The analogy I used shows their complete lack of control over fundamental decision-making and government functions.

The Federal Government has decided to offer free flights. Who gets to ride in J class?


."

 

[TheInsider]

The Federal Government has decided to offer free flights. Who gets to ride in J class?
."

Hopefully Qantas groundstaff, air crew, and diplomatic officials.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

One thing that’s unclear from this story is whether Australians could board the flight from Sydney for Cyprus should they require repatriation to Lebanon and who will pay for that

 

[Cloud9]

One thing that’s unclear from this story is whether Australians could board the flight from Sydney for Cyprus should they require repatriation to Lebanon and who will pay for that

With the current administration, might well be free flights out...

 

[Sprucegoose]

Hopefully Qantas groundstaff, air crew, and diplomatic officials.

One would certainly hope so—it's a complete uplift. I suppose you will have engineers and baggage handlers, which will be a coordination and logistics challenge. Do catering, fuel, parts, and service accounts all need to be in place, or do pilots still carry an Amex to pay for fuel and consumables?

 

[Cloud9]

I agree with you. I don't want to unfairly characterise the people now deciding to repatriate but allowing Hezbollah to establish a state within a state has proven to be disastrous. The analogy I used shows their complete lack of control over fundamental decision-making and government functions.

The Federal Government has decided to offer free flights. Who gets to ride in J class?


."

Fair enough, mate. I just don't like the idea of someone taking the piss by equivocating the expeditionary force to a bunch of wanktards.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Fair enough, mate.

You can address me as Mr Spruce.

someone taking the piss by equivocating the expeditionary force to a bunch of wanktards

Certainly not, and while it's not a formal military operation or a declared war, there will be grief and loss suffered by those being repatriated from what is a war zone and has been so for many decades.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Heck, Canada gave citizenship to US diplomats stuck in Iran in the 70s to ensure they could get safe passage back to America.

Too often, Canadians are overlooked on the world stage. Operation 'Canadian Caper' was brilliantly orchestrated. Fake passports and posing as a film crew allowed the Americans to escape. Some serious buy-in from Hollywood, the CIA, and Joe Clark, the Canadian PM, supported its success.

Did you see the film or any other documentaries on this? America was profoundly grateful for the efforts of those brave Canadians led by
Ambassador Ken Taylor.

Would that happen today? Probably not; that part of the world remains as volatile as it was then.

 

[Sprucegoose]

What system does the US use? For instance, what details of US citizens living in Australia are 'known' to the US government that might contact them in the event of a crisis? ?

Their tax returns! No, try STEP - similar to our Smart Traveller Program

Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP)

The Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP) is a free service that allows U.S. citizens traveling or living abroad to enroll with the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate.

travel.state.gov

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Too often, Canadians are overlooked on the world stage. Operation 'Canadian Caper' was brilliantly orchestrated. Fake passports and posing as a film crew allowed the Americans to escape. Some serious buy-in from Hollywood, the CIA, and Joe Clark, the Canadian PM, supported its success.

Technically there was no fake passports involved. The diplomats were given Canadian citizenship and were issued with valid Canadian passports (there was an order in council made to swear them all in as Canadians inabsentia).

In terms of the politics there was a lot of keeping the other side in the dark (remember that Joe Clark and Pierre Trudeau were PMs during that short period of time)

Did you see the film or any other documentaries on this? America was profoundly grateful for the efforts of those brave Canadians led by
Ambassador Ken Taylor.

I did! It was either W5, CBC or the National Film Board of Canada (I forget which one). But there are quite a few misconceptions about the whole thing.

Would that happen today? Probably not; that part of the world remains as volatile as it was then.

Oh I wouldn’t doubt it would happen again if push came to shove. You know as much as us Canadians love to act like we’re totally different from Americans we share a lot of values, culture, economic interests and the largest border in the world between nations. Canada has and will stick its neck out for the U.S. be it operation Yellow Ribbon during 9/11or NORAD. Sure we won’t do send out men and women out to adventures like Vietnam or Iraq but we’re there when it counts. As a further aside and I know this is now venturing OT, but Canada has until recently had been world renowned for peace keeping. I think if you look at our history when it comes to calling attention to the genocide that happened in Rwanda in 94 and doing our bit to protect those vulnerable over there it certainly reflects the vision for Canada our great PM Lester B Pearson had for the country. Pity we aren’t at that calibre anymore.


-RooFlyer88

 

[Sprucegoose]

this whole thing unfolded relatively quickly over the past 2-3 weeks

No, this has been in the making for many years. It is profoundly historical and now includes a complete meltdown of the political and economic systems. This was aided by many different groups of terror-related proxies operating out of Lebanon. The Prime Minister was assassinated there in 2005, on top of a civil war, post-war instability, the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah, and recently, they have had an economic and political crisis that has crippled the country's leadership - again. There is a fragmented, corrupt political system, the humanitarian crisis means essential goods are in rare supply, there is hyperinflation, and the World Bank declared it one of the most severe economic crises historically and globally.

In short, the place is a basket case.

Certainly if you went to Lebanon over the winter to escape the cold Australian winter in favour of warmer climes

No one in their right would visit Lebanon for a holiday these days; however, if you feel moved enough, the North will have less conflict.

It was once a great place -referred to as the Paris of the Middle East. I have never been there, and I think that horse has bolted.

 

[Sprucegoose]

As a further aside and I know this is now venturing OT, but Canada has until recently had been world renowned for peace keeping. I think if you look at our history when it comes to calling attention to the genocide that happened in Rwanda in 94 and doing our bit to protect those vulnerable over there it certainly reflects the vision for Canada our great PM Lester B Pearson had for the country. Pity we aren’t at that calibre anymore.

Agreed. I am studying their WW! and WW2 contributions, which were substantial, especially considering their population at the time.

We will now revert to the topic!

 

[kangarooflyer88]

No, this has been in the making for many years. It is profoundly historical and now includes a complete meltdown of the political and economic systems. This was aided by many different groups of terror-related proxies operating out of Lebanon. The Prime Minister was assassinated there in 2005, on top of a civil war, post-war instability, the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah, and recently, they have had an economic and political crisis that has crippled the country's leadership - again. There is a fragmented, corrupt political system, the humanitarian crisis means essential goods are in rare supply, there is hyperinflation, and the World Bank declared it one of the most severe economic crises historically and globally.

In short, the place is a basket case.


No one in their right would visit Lebanon for a holiday these days; however, if you feel moved enough, the North will have less conflict.

Maybe not, although I would be interested in understanding why these people went to Lebanon despite the warnings (perhaps that's something the Australian government can find out so to reduce the likelihood of this happening again).

I suppose the ultimate question is what duty does the Australian government owe to people who travel here for:

• Tourism (including members of this forum looking to score a crazy status credit run)
• Visiting a family/loved one who lives there
• Visiting on compassionate grounds (i.e. to see a sick parent dying)
• Journalist stuck in a story they can't escape
• Diplomatic and government officials

I would also be curious to see how many Australians took the commonwealth up on their offer for business and first class travel back. Then again, I doubt the government will release load factor figures for these flights. And then it raises yet another question, is this is a one off offer from the government or will this be something they will continue to offer to Aussies in the coming weeks and months? And what impact does all of this have to the Qantas fleet and route network? My understanding (and correct me if I'm mistaken here) is that Qantas is running a pretty lean fleet. A lot of the new Airbus aircraft they have ordered have yet to be delivered, and much of their wide body capacity which pretty much supports any international flight they operate given the distances involved. Looking at Qantas' fleet the 330 makes up the bulk of wide body aircraft at 24 in service which have an average age of 17.8 years (not the youngest birds in the fleet), followed by 14 787s at 5.6 years of age (young birds by my estimation) followed by 7 Airbus A380s with an average age of 15.1 years (getting up there in age). What we do know is older aircraft whilst perfectly safe and reliable do require more servicing. And so if we count the 45 wide body aircraft (which sounds like a ton) they are spreading themselves thin given the many destinations they fly daily using these wide bodies from Singapore and LA to London and Tokyo. Pulling even one bird out of their operation for a day will have an impact on the network, like it or not.

And again, not to beat a dead horse here, but why cannot these governments simply facilitate safe travel to a nearby safe third country? Why does the government have to foot the bill for an all expenses paid business class or first class intercontinental journey when simply moving them a couple of hundred clicks to Cyprus or Dubai would do the trick? And how are we certain they won't go back in a couple of months and pull the same stunt again?

Perhaps I am missing something here. Maybe Australians who visited Lebanon are not allowed to enter these countries (i.e. it created a "black mark" on their passport) but I feel that this is unlikely. No one is arguing that these travellers cannot get flights to Australia (or Canada or the United States for that matter) if they wish from these locations.

 

[elanshin]

I suppose the ultimate question is what duty does the Australian government owe to people who travel here for:

• Tourism (including members of this forum looking to score a crazy status credit run)
• Visiting a family/loved one who lives there
• Visiting on compassionate grounds (i.e. to see a sick parent dying)
• Journalist stuck in a story they can't escape
• Diplomatic and government officials

I would hazard a guess that most of the people "stuck" weren't visiting for the fun of it. There is a sizable Lebanese population in Sydney that for one reason or another might have returned. We likely also run these flights for NZ if there are small numbers too.

And so if we count the 45 wide body aircraft (which sounds like a ton) they are spreading themselves thin given the many destinations they fly daily using these wide bodies from Singapore and LA to London and Tokyo. Pulling even one bird out of their operation for a day will have an impact on the network, like it or not.

Yes this will be taking multiple days out from the LHR - PER routes.

And again, not to beat a dead horse here, but why cannot these governments simply facilitate safe travel to a nearby safe third country? Why does the government have to foot the bill for an all expenses paid business class or first class intercontinental journey when simply moving them a couple of hundred clicks to Cyprus or Dubai would do the trick? And how are we certain they won't go back in a couple of months and pull the same stunt again?

I suspect its to do with optics as well as logistics. From a political pov, its pretty bad optics to take them to say Dubai then leave them there with last minute costs for everything. I can see the news headlines already.

From Qantas' PoV if they accept this, where do they send the plane next? SIN? SYD? PER? It'd be easier to restart their schedule from the normal Aussie ports than run another useless deadhead flight so might as well take them home.

As for the final point, if they want to head back then that's on them now. Repatriation flights aren't continuously run.

 

[Sprucegoose]

understanding why these people went to Lebanon despite the warnings (perhaps that's something the Australian government can find out so to reduce the likelihood of this happening again).

My Lebanese friends return for family reasons. The lack of social cohesion strengthens their tightly-knit family groupings.

And again, not to beat a dead horse here, but why cannot these governments simply facilitate safe travel to a nearby safe third country? Why does the government have to foot the bill for an all expenses paid business class or first class intercontinental journey when simply moving them a couple of hundred clicks to Cyprus or Dubai would do the trick? And how are we certain they won't go back in a couple of months and pull the same stunt again?

The Federal Government makes this decision to discharge its obligations to Australians in need—' the right thing to do.' It also has political motivations, given that the government faces challenges from the Muslim community and has recently lost a Muslim Senator. There are threats of a breakaway party being formed, which would split the Muslim vote from the major parties, but this is expected to hurt Labor more than the Opposition. The government needs to support this group if it hopes to retain specific seats in Western and South Western Sydney.

Why does the government have to foot the bill for an all expenses paid business class or first class intercontinental journey

A previous post suggested that officials and the Qantas support team will occupy the J cabin—there is no first class.

You question why Qantas does this with a lean fleet. There is an unwritten obligation that Qantas helps Australians in need, as determined by the Federal Government and coordinated by DFAT.

I am unaware of any schedule changes required to undertake these rescue flights. Melburnian1 will advise in due course.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I suspect its to do with optics as well as logistics. From a political pov, its pretty bad optics to take them to say Dubai then leave them there with last minute costs for everything. I can see the news headlines already.

Agreed that the optics don't look good and for a political party that counts on the minority vote it may very well be even politically expedient for them to do so. And I suppose too, one could argue who cares, it's not a lot of money and it's the government's money anyway. After all, I suspect if any of us pored over the budget of the Commonwealth we would find spending we would personally object to, whereas other items we would support.

But I do sincerely wonder if this Cyprus plan that they have planned will work out as they hoped, or whether once the dust has settled they realize they could have done more good simply facilitating travel to these safe countries instead. A Qantas 787 can seat somewhere around 236 passengers give or take. Now I don't know how many Aussies (and Kiwis for that matter) are in Lebanon and require repatriation. But I wouldn't be surprised if it is an order of magnitude larger than the seating capacity of one of these jets.

And as much as the optics of an Aussie being stuck in Dubai looks, it will be far worse if a single Aussie is injured (or worse) dies in Lebanon because the government spent all their resources focusing on the long haul travel of the mission but failed to spend adequate resources securing their safe passage to these third countries. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the long haul part of the travel is really the easy bit, once you are in a city like Dubai or even Larnaca. The tough bit is actually moving those couple of hundred or thousand kilometres to safety and that is something the Commonwealth and frankly other nations supporting rescue efforts should focus on. Every single Aussie needs to be able to leave Lebanon safely. That should be the mission. Anything else is icing on the cake.

From Qantas' PoV if they accept this, where do they send the plane next? SIN? SYD? PER? It'd be easier to restart their schedule from the normal Aussie ports than run another useless deadhead flight so might as well take them home.

Why is there a need for Qantas or any airline for that matter to provide support if DFAT can organize travel to these caught out travellers to a nearby safe zone like Cyprus or Dubai. Certainly, once they get to these locations, there will be other airlines far more equipped to help repatriate Aussies than Qantas ever would. Take Dubai as an example, there are tons of flights Emirates operates not just between Dubai and Australia but also New Zealand for that matter.

As for the final point, if they want to head back then that's on them now. Repatriation flights aren't continuously run.

They may not be continuously run but from prior experiences (i.e. COVID repatriation flights) I highly doubt this will be all of the flights we'll see organized by DFAT. Now certainly what happened to Aussies caught out during COVID is quite a bit different from what is going on here in Lebanon. But one could argue that it is politically expedient for the government to provide the same level of support for stranded Aussies.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Now I don't know how many Aussies (and Kiwis for that matter) are in Lebanon and require repatriation

At least 15,000, which could increase to around 30,000 - is the best guess.