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[Kendall Roy]

Qantas Answers - Home

Looks like QF management are getting desperate!

In the coming weeks, we will announce some exciting changes to the Qantas business. These changes will be good for Qantas, for our customers, for our employees, and for Australia.
These changes will make Qantas a better, stronger airline that can compete on a level playing field with our international competitors.

Cue "enhancements"!

 

[OverrideServlet]

Making the dispute so public like this looks really unprofessional I think.

I'm referring to both the pilots and their employer here.

Also, I'm saying this despite being fairly certain about which side I agree with.

 

[awilcockson]

wow, that's some pretty low tactics from Qantas (oublically airing the pilots' employment conditions to get the public on side, I mean let's face it who isn't going to look at a $350K salary and say "wow, they are getting paid too much already"?)

Pilots are a vital part of Qantas and we make sure their expertise is rewarded with generous pay and conditions.

• Qantas pilots are amongst the best paid in the world, receiving over 30 per cent more on average than a Virgin pilot flying similar aircraft.
• The average Boeing 747 Captain earns approximately $350,000 per year (including superannuation and allowances).
• The average Airbus A380 Captain earns almost $400,000 (including superannuation and allowances).
• The average Qantas long-haul pilot is rostered to fly between 16-17.5 hours per week.
• They receive six weeks annual leave plus 25 sick leave days per year.
• They enjoy heavily discounted staff travel including upgrades to Business and First.

I have a serious issue with this as well

AIPA wants to force all Qantas affiliate airlines, including Jetstar and Jetconnect, to pay their pilots the same premium rates and conditions as Qantas pilots.

Qantas subsidiaries such as our low-cost carrier airline Jetstar have separate enterprise agreements with different pay rates and conditions to Qantas long-haul pilots. This reflects the different markets which they operate (e.g. low cost, leisure market) and cost structures of competitors.

That's all well and good, except that the constant Jetstar-ising of QF mainline routes proves that this is a completely bogus claim.

 

[thewinchester]

Making the dispute so public like this looks really unprofessional I think.

I'm referring to both the pilots and their employer here.

Also, I'm saying this despite being fairly certain about which side I agree with.

What complete, utter bull.

This is the best move they could make. Strategically brilliant, adds appropriate perspective to the debate, and means that the unions can't just spread the BS they have been without challenge and comment.

I applaud QF for for taking this path, and beating these cough at their own game.

 

[Kendall Roy]

and means that the unions can't just spread the BS they have been without challenge and comment.

Just like previous QF statements about the pilots seeking a 26% payrise?

 

[OverrideServlet]

I applaud QF for for taking this path, and beating these cough at their own game.

I don't think anyone is beating anyone else. They have both stooped to the same level in my eyes.

Admittedly, I'm just one data point in a very large sample.

Again, I've pretty much decided who's side I'm on here (not relevant to my point). I'm just saying I disagree with the tactics of both teams.

 

[Limewood]

Considering the Q pilots are voicing their opinion on aircraft to the passengers (and I've had two emails from Q pilots I know supporting their cause), its then reasonable for Q to have their say, always two sides to every story.

The bit that got me was...

"That Qantas funds two full time union officials at a cost of up to $1 million per year."

surely not.

 

[medhead]

Well, I had an interesting discussion on the weekend about what iron ore train drivers earn. First year trainee -$120k apparently. 5 years of training, when qualified $250k. 350 and 400 ain't that big considering the relative differences in the career requirements.

As for fighting BS. How do you fight BS by spread more BS? Qantas pilots earn X% more than virgin pilots on similar aircraft but then go on a list the pay for 747 and A380 pilots. I'm sorry qantas since when is an A380 similar to an E190?

Another low point in this whole sorry affair.

 

[harvyk]

Well, I had an interesting discussion on the weekend about what iron ore train drivers earn. First year trainee -$120k apparently. 5 years of training, when qualified $250k. 350 and 400 ain't that big considering the relative differences in the career requirements.

Stating that someone in a completely different industry earns $X, therefore people in another industry with a completely different skill set should be earning $X+Y is meaningless.

Lets compare apples with apples here... Compared to other similar airlines (in similar operating environments, operating out of countries with similar standard of living as our own) what do airline employees earn?


I do however like the statement about QF being the only airline who maintains it's planes in Australia, and always laugh whenever I see "Until Qantas brings it's maintenance back to Australia I'll only fly Singapore Airlines" comments posted on news websites. It's as if they don't realise the irony of their statement.

 

[kamchatsky]

Whilst it is not nice, QF had to do this to counter the unions. Afterall this is a serious conflict between the two forces, there is no room for sissies.

 

[medhead]

Stating that someone in a completely different industry earns $X, therefore people in another industry with a completely different skill set should be earning $X+Y is meaningless.

Lets compare apples with apples here... Compared to other similar airlines (in similar operating environments, operating out of countries with similar standard of living as our own) what do airline employees earn?

I didn't post that as a benchmark for pilot salaries. I posted that in response to the idea that the public will view pilot's salary as excessive. When I know the a first year apprentice train driver gets $120k, I don't think $350k for a 747 pilot is excessive. In fact I wonder why pilots even bother become pilots, not for the money when they could go and drive trains and still earn a decent living and not be responsible for the 300 lives. Even if we consider the barriers to entry I'm sure that someone who is capable for becoming a 747 captain has the grey matter required to win a competitive selection process.

As for comparing apples with apples. Qantas isn't doing so, why should I?

 

[serfty]

In regard to comparing apples with apples, it seems to me a better comparison would be what 3K pilots or Air Asia pilot may get compared with an Equivalent Qantas pilot.

That still won't answer the issue as it's more complicated than that; but certainly it's a more valid comparison than that of a Train Driver.

 

[notzac]

IMHO a seriously tacky move by QF

 

[medhead]

In regard to comparing apples with apples, it seems to me a better comparison would be what 3K pilots or Air Asia pilot may get compared with an Equivalent Qantas pilot.

That still won't answer the issue as it's more complicated than that; but certainly it's a more valid comparison than that of a Train Driver.

As I already mentioned the train driver example was not given as a benchmark. It was given as a way to gauge the likely public response to the quoted average pilot salaries. As in "if train drivers earn $X then it seems perfectly reasonable that pilots earn $1.5X". Basically, based on that example (and others that I hear) I don't see the average pilot salary as excessive or out of step and I don't think many other people will either. This is about public perception here and the public doesn't know about various pilot salaries at different airlines. But they do know about the level of training required for a pilot and they do know that uncle bob gets $Y and he left school in year 10. IMO qantas are mistaken if they think this is a winning argument.

The question of comparison is interesting. Qantas/Joyce was out there quoting average flight hours for qantas vs other airlines. But "asking the pilot" suggests this is probably not valid. On the question of average hours it seems that you would need to compare airlines that have substantially the same operations, routes and fleet. Extensive domestic flights plus long haul. Are there any airlines that fit this profile? Unitied? BA? Certainly not SQ and CX.

Continuing the salary comparison question, it seems that qantas has an excess number of new A380 pilots due to the need to be ready of new aircraft to come on line. That's going to do things to salary averages vs profits and such. Are 3K and air Asia in a similar situation?

Then with incorrect comparisons I'll again mention comparing to DJ salaries and then going on to reference the average for 747 and A380 pilots. Why not 737 average salary, if we wish to compare apples and apples. What does the average 737 pilot get 120/150k? In which case, not at all excessive for someone with that level of skill.

 

[NM]

I do however like the statement about QF being the only airline who maintains it's planes in Australia...

In which country is the maintenance undertaken for are all the RR engines that Qantas has on their fleet of A380, 747 and 767 aircraft? And I don't just mean an on-the-wing inspection. I am asking about where would, for example a QF 747's RB211 engine be stripped, inspected and rebuilt when its time-on-wing expires?

 

[froggerADL]

2.5 per cent increases in wages each year for the next three years.

The above was from the linked article. How can a claim for 2.5% be considered excessive. It would be a pay cut in real terms.

Those damn pesky unions. If we keep going like this the great unwashed will want lawyers to represent their legal interests!

I wonder what pay increases (including bonuses) Mr. Joyce has helped himself to over the last couple of years.

 

[NM]

How can a claim for 2.5% be considered excessive. It would be a pay cut in real terms.

Tell that to the manager that decides my salary review. I have not seen 2.5% for at least 5 years now.

 

[goldy]

What complete, utter bull.

This is the best move they could make. Strategically brilliant, adds appropriate perspective to the debate, and means that the unions can't just spread the BS they have been without challenge and comment.

I applaud QF for for taking this path, and beating these cough at their own game.

my my aren't we a tad naive. I thought most reasonable adults knew there were always 3 sides to any story, mine, yours and the truth, with the truth generally being a nice mix of the other 2!

 

[goldy]

I wonder what pay increases (including bonuses) Mr. Joyce has helped himself to over the last couple of years.

Excuse me!! how dare you bring AJ's salary into this. AJ is entitled to screw over the staff so that he can meet his targets and take home bucket loads of cash. Just dont be reporting that as it has no relevance to the current industrial dispute!!


(please note the sarcasm)


On a slight tangent, a mate of mine who is a 767 FO told me that a while back when GD ran the show, QF pilots were asked to stump up 16 or so million in concessions. Guess who got a 16 or so million dollar payout??

 

[froggerADL]

Tell that to the manager that decides my salary review. I have not seen 2.5% for at least 5 years now.

Dear NMs manager,

In real terms you have been cutting the pay of your loyal employee for at least the last 5 years.

Regards,

The frog.