QF & Current Industrial Action

[cosi]

Interesting comments in Saturday's West Australian Newspaper (1/10/11) from respected avaitation reporter Geffrey Thomas.

Airline icon on flight path to destruction - The West Australian

Qantas is on a catastrophic downward spiral as three of its most powerful unions ignore overseas and local trends and demand wages and conditions above their overseas and domestic counterparts and out of the reach of most Australians.


The country's greatest icon is on the ropes and passengers are looking to a leaner, more responsive born-again Virgin Australia as a viable alternative.
Qantas is caught in a perfect storm of management errors going back 20 years, unions that are ignoring reality just as Ansett's did and the late delivery of game-changing Boeing 787 planes.


With unions circling Qantas demanding job security among a log of claims, many analysts warn that Qantas in its present structure is not equipped to face further global liberalisation, just as Ansett was not positioned to withstand the ill winds of domestic deregulation.
Peter Harbison, the chairman of Sydney-based Centre for Aviation, has warned repeatedly that a prolonged strike will "gut" Qantas and its management "simply cannot give in".


It is time for the unions to back off for 12 months and sit down with management to reinvent Qantas from the ground up. With costs 20 per cent above competitors such as Emirates, Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines, Qantas must offer passengers more innovation to command a higher fare.
Qantas' market share of international traffic has slipped from more than 40 per cent in 1995 to just 18.9 per cent last year, though some has been transferred to its low-cost subsidiary Jetstar.


The unions need to understand that much of their angst with Qantas would be better directed at the Government, which has set in train the market dynamics that have put the airline under siege.

 

[Durin's Bane]

Interesting comments in Saturday's West Australian Newspaper (1/10/11) from respected avaitation reporter Geffrey Thomas.

Airline icon on flight path to destruction - The West Australian

Good read.

This type of thing is becoming an all too familiar story these days in Oz...

Toyota workers strike continues | Herald Sun

Union heavies threaten Toyota workers who refuse to strike | Herald Sun

 

[rechoboam]

If I leave a day late for an upcoming business trip the consequences of rescheduling will basically cost my company fifteen thousand dollars.

While the strikes' effects are I suspect a little exaggerated, I have to wonder whether QF is a viable option when I could use SQ or, now, DJ. The unions are obviously not really big-picture types. Their 5% claim (more than my income rises each year) is not a big concern for me and frankly if they all ended up unemployed I guess I have some generic human sympathy but my primary concern is the viability of my own employees' jobs. Something about the ability to directly screw up peoples' schedules seems to lead to these absurdly destructive campaigns where the engineers' financial problems are supposed to become other peoples' issue. Well frankly they aren't my problem.

 

[wilco]

Qantas management have been disconnected from their employees and customers for far too long. I personally believe it is the same greedy and selfish management that is flying this iconic australian firm into the ground. I understand that aviation is a global business and you need to be competitive on all fronts, but the 30,000 odd Qantas employees simply cannot live in this country on foreign wages. plain and simple.

 

[juddles]

.... I understand that aviation is a global business and you need to be competitive on all fronts, but the 30,000 odd Qantas employees simply cannot live in this country on foreign wages. plain and simple.

I agree with your ideals, but am not sure how you can actually do that??! People these days just buy the cheapest ticket, and in such an environment Qantas simply cannot pay everyone what they want, improve the service, etc etc etc.

I am not an expert in aviation/airline marketing/management, but I get the feeling that the action by unions is actually FORCING Qantas to do exactly what the union doesn't want - move as much costing offshore.

 

[Robert K]

Qantas management have been disconnected from their employees and customers for far too long. I personally believe it is the same greedy and selfish management that is flying this iconic australian firm into the ground. I understand that aviation is a global business and you need to be competitive on all fronts, but the 30,000 odd Qantas employees simply cannot live in this country on foreign wages. plain and simple.

Qantas isn't putting them on foreign wages, they're just not increasing it.

 

[wilco]

Qantas isn't putting them on foreign wages, they're just not increasing it.

Yet every cost around them increases. Food, utilities, housing and general cost of living all increase, in many cases more so than the CPI. Wages therefore must also increase.

What I was referring to regarding foreign wages was the claim that the QF cost base is 20% higher than its direct "foreign" competitors, namely EK, SQ and CX. I do not see how QF can match this cost base and retain positive relations with its workforce. If Management expect the rank and file to cop a 20% decrease in pay, may I suggest they start with themselves first!

 

[juddles]

Yet every cost around them increases. Food, utilities, housing and general cost of living all increase, in many cases more so than the CPI. Wages therefore must also increase.

What I was referring to regarding foreign wages was the claim that the QF cost base is 20% higher than its direct "foreign" competitors, namely EK, SQ and CX. I do not see how QF can match this cost base and retain positive relations with its workforce. If Management expect the rank and file to cop a 20% decrease in pay, may I suggest they start with themselves first!

If wages "must" increase, then so must the airfares. And the majority of people these days have no particular loyalty to Qantas so they will simply book with other airlines.

And I was unaware that "Management" is considering a 20% drop in wages for staff??

I support Qantas by flying them every chance I get, which is 90% of my international sectors involving Australia at one end. If a few more Aussies did this there wouldn't be such a problem.

 

[mannej]

If you bring cost of living etc into it, why do you not have the same issues with virgin Australia then, considering they supposedly pay their staff less?

 

[wilco]

And I was unaware that "Management" is considering a 20% drop in wages for staff??

I support Qantas by flying them every chance I get, which is 90% of my international sectors involving Australia at one end. If a few more Aussies did this there wouldn't be such a problem.

Im not saying they were. The referenced article states that QF has made it known that its cost base is 20% higher than its competitors and I take that to mean that they need to reduce their costs by 20% to be competitive. I also understand JQ salaries to be significantly less than 20% below the equivalent Qf salary.

As for supporting QF.... I used to, but the hard and soft product has had its day and the service is somewhat ordinary, so I find my attitude toward QF being about as indifferent as they seem to be toward their customers who are clearly voting with their feet.

As for the industrial dispute....I dont know what the answer is, but having such significant issues with the majority of your workforce is untenable. The current situation cannot continue indefinitely and something has to eventually give. If its not staff and its not management, then it will be the company and everyone loses.

 

[JohnPhelan]

the 30,000 odd Qantas employees simply cannot live in this country on foreign wages. plain and simple.

And no-one is asking them to!!!! Plain and simple. Please try to understand the issue before making comments. QF will continue to pay QF staff the current wages. The issue relates to those people employed and living overseas - not those in Australia.

 

[juddles]

...(1)..cost base is 20% higher than its competitors and I take that to mean that they need to reduce their costs by 20% to be competitive. I also understand JQ salaries to be significantly less than 20% below the equivalent Qf salary....
(2) As for supporting QF.... I used to, but the hard and soft product has had its day and the service is somewhat ordinary, so I find my attitude toward QF being about as indifferent as they seem to be toward their customers who are clearly voting with their feet...
(3)..having such significant issues with the majority of your workforce is untenable. The current situation cannot continue indefinitely and something has to eventually give. If its not staff and its not management, then it will be the company and everyone loses.

(1) I understand that their overall costs are 20% higher. Not just staffing, which I suspect is way more than 20% higher.

(2) Ordinary service? Not my experience, but if you mean you prefer a pack of underpaid slaves pandering to your every whim, then sure, fly another airline. People pay a Qantas airfare and expect the same "service" as on an Asian airline, but they then expect so much more pandering/value when on a holiday to some third world country than holidaying in Australia. Doesn't compute.

(3) Yes, if everyone keeps expecting Qantas to deliver the same service as airlines that pay their staff a fraction of the wage, but at the same ticket cost, then the airline is doomed.

 

[wilco]

And no-one is asking them to!!!! Plain and simple. Please try to understand the issue before making comments. QF will continue to pay QF staff the current wages. The issue relates to those people employed and living overseas - not those in Australia.

With all due respect, if you know more than others, then by all means share, but im not exactly sure what makes you, or I, an expert on the subject. We are both expressing our opinions. The industrial relations issue i'm referring to directly impacts local staff and not foreign ones, in complete contrast to your bold assertion above.
From my understanding the current dispute has very little to do with overseas based employees, except where they are employed in preference to local staff. I dont believe for one second that QF is happy to continue paying local staff the current wages, let alone the modest 5% increases over X years when it can pay NZ, Thai or UK based staff significantly less. Its patently clear what AJ et al are up to with their industrial witchcraft of turning 1 local employee into 2 foreign ones whilst still "allegedly" calling Australia home.

 

[juddles]

.... Its patently clear what AJ et al are up to ....

Yes it is. They are trying to save an airline because so many australians prefer to buy cheaper tickets with airlines that can provide more pandering than can be bought from Australian staff who are not slaves.

Sorry for rant. I just dont buy the whole "Management are evil" line. I am sure that Qantas would love tp pay its staff heaps, if they could only do it and still stay in the black....

 

[JohnPhelan]

I dont believe for one second that QF is happy to continue paying local staff the current wages .... Its patently clear what AJ et al are up to with their industrial witchcraft.

Ah, thank you for making your industrial/political bias clear.

You seem to be in the "industrial witchcraft" business yourself .......

 

[wilco]

(1) I understand that their overall costs are 20% higher. Not just staffing, which I suspect is way more than 20% higher.

(2) Ordinary service? Not my experience, but if you mean you prefer a pack of underpaid slaves pandering to your every whim, then sure, fly another airline. People pay a Qantas airfare and expect the same "service" as on an Asian airline, but they then expect so much more pandering/value when on a holiday to some third world country than holidaying in Australia. Doesn't compute.

(3) Yes, if everyone keeps expecting Qantas to deliver the same service as airlines that pay their staff a fraction of the wage, but at the same ticket cost, then the airline is doomed.

I think i agree with your first point but not so much the next 2. If you have had stellar service on QF, than continue flying them. I have not and so make other choices that better suit my needs. QF ought to charge a premium, if they offer a premium service. IMO, they do not and hence cannot charge more, despite more often than not being the most expensive and most inconvenient to Europe. I know they face significant geographical challenges, unlike their competitors, but that does not qualify them for special treatment or consideration.

 

[wilco]

Yes it is. They are trying to save an airline because so many australians prefer to buy cheaper tickets with airlines that can provide more pandering than can be bought from Australian staff who are not slaves.

Sorry for rant. I just dont buy the whole "Management are evil" line. I am sure that Qantas would love tp pay its staff heaps, if they could only do it and still stay in the black....

Take one hard look at what Geoff Dixon and his cronies tried to get away with whilst standing to pocket tens/hundreds of millions of dollars and tell me management isnt evil? Had Dixon succeeded in his scheme, Qantas would already be dead.

I dont see how anything that AJ does will change australians mindset about cheaper fares and better service from foreign carriers. I wish him all the best but think that the horse has bolted on that one.

I would really appreciate it if you could drop this slave rubbish as i dont think that SQ/CX/EK etc staff are bought, sold or kept against their will.

Also, how much money did QF earn this financial year? They are very well in the black, despite the incredibly low ROI and ROC, but thats the nature of the aviation business. HUGE costs, thin margins.

 

[dfcatch]

For the record - I want good service from Qantas compared to previous Qantas service.

I am not comparing with Asian airlines.

And my experience is that I feel, there has been a degradation of service, together with more of a LCC feel under AJ, which I, as a customer don't like.

And I'm talking about both domestic and Int Qantas ops.

Now, I still consider Qantas good, but I do feel it's slipping in some areas. Clearly DJ are going in the other direction, and it will be interesting to see where it goes.

I'm not a blind defender of QF management, but I'm not a defender of the unions either.

 

[Simsy85]

Hrmm interesting stuff...Including the News Ltd story that apparently QFFers are annoyed at the pilots having there say before a flight.. I for one don't agree

As for you mob above, I know a thing or two about IR... I can't see either party agreeing here, so i'd expect this to end up in the disputes courts which is where it belongs... I haven't looked at either package (from eitehr side) in detail, but normally they fall somewhere in between, and they almost ALWAYS take into account the cost of living.

The problem here for QF, is if after this decision they sack staff... they will almost certainly find themselves in the midst of probably the ugliest dismissal case in Australias history...

 

[samiam]

The problem here for QF, is if after this decision they sack staff... they will almost certainly find themselves in the midst of probably the ugliest dismissal case in Australias history...

That's a big jump to make if you "haven't looked at either package (from eitehr side) in detail", including clauses covering termination and redundancy.