QFF points - Price and Value

[sumthinfornuthin]

Worth looking at som OZ Asa awards. Mel SYD Alice springs is only about 40000 points and a couple of hundred dollars for around 200 sc's. Don't shoot me of that is wrong as I have not checked beforehand but have done a few runs to build up status

​

 

[Berlin]

Wow, what an awesome post, thanks so much for that! Bit complex to read but hey, that just shows how complex the matter is! And besides all the calculations, I think your comments on status credits and personal value of certain features (e.g. business class flat bad on an A380 flight intercontinental being much more important than the tiny benefit of flying in J vs. row 4 in Y on a one hour flight on the "triangle") are very relevant, at least in my case they are.

I tend to use my QF points on upgrades from Y+to J or J to F on either the LHR or the LAX route or to buy some JASAs if I am in need of SCs. Your post confirms that this is neither the best not the worse which was my suspicion anyway. However, personally, I value these the most, for me there's nothing better than a nice upgrade to F on a joy (or business) trip to America or Europe. Saying that- I've just recently discovered the amazing value of US Airways Dividend Miles promos and will be happily becoming unfaithful to QF in August on a Thai A380 First class return flight to Europe sipping my Dom all the way at a price that's almost a crime to mention to anyone who doesn't know about the whole thing

 

[RobJ]

I hope GoldMember is recognised in the Oz Day honours for his unique public service.

Does anyone have any ideas on ASA awards though? When I've done dummy bookings they've seemed absurdly expensive on both dollars and points, even when free classic awards are available for the same flights.

 

[nowmedia]

I hope GoldMember is recognised in the Oz Day honours for his unique public service.

Does anyone have any ideas on ASA awards though? When I've done dummy bookings they've seemed absurdly expensive on both dollars and points, even when free classic awards are available for the same flights.

Keep looking - ASAs can fluctuate dramatically on a daily basis.

And congrats to GM who should now be referred to as Solid Gold. Truly spectacular.

 

[markis10]

I hope GoldMember is recognised in the Oz Day honours for his unique public service.

Does anyone have any ideas on ASA awards though? When I've done dummy bookings they've seemed absurdly expensive on both dollars and points, even when free classic awards are available for the same flights.

Your lucky you live in a city where there are some good ones such as to Townsville for 24000 + cash, try that with a classic.

 

[Newk]

I hope GoldMember is recognised in the Oz Day honours for his unique public service.

Does anyone have any ideas on ASA awards though? When I've done dummy bookings they've seemed absurdly expensive on both dollars and points, even when free classic awards are available for the same flights.

there is an art to finding ASAs. I am still in the learning phase. Until I came to AFF I didn't get it. But here are some hints:
Get in as early as you can.
And try small variations in port of departure...you might find a really cheap one from Sydney when they are outrageously expensive from Melbourne. Or try the day before or the day after.
There is a bit up the top of the ASA booking page that says

"If you choose to pay an amount by charge or credit card, the minimum points needed for this itinerary start from xx_,xx_ per passenger."



The aim is to get your total cost (after you do the pay cash to diminish points right at the end of the booking) down as close to the xx_,xx_ as you can.

Hope that helps

 

[Myrna]

Thank you, Gold Member, for your time and analysis. Absolutely brilliant!

 

[sumthinfornuthin]

there is an art to finding ASAs. I am still in the learning phase. Until I came to AFF I didn't get it. But here are some hints:
Get in as early as you can.
And try small variations in port of departure...you might find a really cheap one from Sydney when they are outrageously expensive from Melbourne. Or try the day before or the day after.
There is a bit up the top of the ASA booking page that says

"If you choose to pay an amount by charge or credit card, the minimum points needed for this itinerary start from xx_,xx_ per passenger."



The aim is to get your total cost (after you do the pay cash to diminish points right at the end of the booking) down as close to the xx_,xx_ as you can.

Hope that helps

Spot on !!!!............................. use as few points as possible and keep racking up the SC's

 

[AirKat]

Thank you this is brilliant. I'm pleased I'm using my points in the most efficient way - FASAs MEL LHR MEL in April and JASAs MEL HKG MEL in November. For the FASAs we booked within a week of the dates becoming available... as everyone says, getting in early helps.

 

[bertair]

1. Gold Member is owed a great debt of THANKS !!!.
   So much effort has gone into this.
   As I am not quite such a frequent flyer these days, may I add my observations and experience as comments to the thread.
   FIrst up, I never could really grasp why Status Credits were so important, mainly because I could never get enough flying miles in regularly to keep any I earned. I would much sooner have had more FF Points instead.
   I have used or I should say wasted many 100ks of points, on flights that I probably would have been better off simply paying the fare and getting FF points.
   Qantas have formulae for using and earning points that I sometimes wonder, are designed to confuse members and get them burning up points for the benefit of Qantas.
   I would be much happier if it were as simple as "X" amount of points per air mile for International Flights and "Y" for Domestic flights.
   And if I wanted to use my points for any flight, I simply choose to use whatever points I had to pay for my flights regardless of class as "Qantas Currency" and the deal would be, I get the seat I pay for and the service I pay for, using cash or points.
   Providing of course there were seats available in the system on the day I booked.
   Now that I am into retirement and not travelling as much as I used to, any time I can earn my Points, from whatever source (flights or C/Card), I will take them and set a goal to reach and then I will book my holiday.
   Whatever class I fly depends on the points I have or the length of the legs.
   I am far too old to sit up in ECY for anymore than 8 hours, so where there is a bed, then I am prepared to pay. In cash or points & if I need to top up the points with cash so be it.
   I shall digest more deeply Gold Members advice in coming days., but I am afraid that Qantas may also read this and change the rules to the detriment of its loyal FF members.​

1. 
   
   ​

 

[Newk]

1. 
   I shall digest more deeply Gold Members advice in coming days., but I am afraid that Qantas may also read this and change the rules to the detriment of its loyal FF members.​

1. 
   
   ​

Interesting thought. I rather suspect the people that design and run the QFF program are extremely smart and have many resources to hand. They make the rules of the game

There are people who use the QFF scheme that are extremely smart and have time and resources. They play the game. And QFF want and need these people to be playing the game.
I doubt that this thread will change anything that QFF does. I suspect that they know exactly what they are doing and that they would love us discussing these things. It keeps people playing their game.
Sure there is a tweak now and then. Helps keep it interesting for the ​players

 

[sumthinfornuthin]

1. Gold Member is owed a great debt of THANKS !!!.
   So much effort has gone into this.
   As I am not quite such a frequent flyer these days, may I add my observations and experience as comments to the thread.
   FIrst up, I never could really grasp why Status Credits were so important, mainly because I could never get enough flying miles in regularly to keep any I earned. I would much sooner have had more FF Points instead.
   I have used or I should say wasted many 100ks of points, on flights that I probably would have been better off simply paying the fare and getting FF points.
   Qantas have formulae for using and earning points that I sometimes wonder, are designed to confuse members and get them burning up points for the benefit of Qantas.
   I would be much happier if it were as simple as "X" amount of points per air mile for International Flights and "Y" for Domestic flights.
   And if I wanted to use my points for any flight, I simply choose to use whatever points I had to pay for my flights regardless of class as "Qantas Currency" and the deal would be, I get the seat I pay for and the service I pay for, using cash or points.
   Providing of course there were seats available in the system on the day I booked.
   Now that I am into retirement and not travelling as much as I used to, any time I can earn my Points, from whatever source (flights or C/Card), I will take them and set a goal to reach and then I will book my holiday.
   Whatever class I fly depends on the points I have or the length of the legs.
   I am far too old to sit up in ECY for anymore than 8 hours, so where there is a bed, then I am prepared to pay. In cash or points & if I need to top up the points with cash so be it.
   I shall digest more deeply Gold Members advice in coming days., but I am afraid that Qantas may also read this and change the rules to the detriment of its loyal FF members.
   
   ​

1. 
   
   ​

Market forces dictate the price of anything and demand ebbs and flows from day to day and hour to hour and the QFF seats are priced accordingly. If you want to sit on a seat in a popular time spot then you have to pay more points, simple as that. Fly at other lesser popular times and it takes less points. QFF are playing us with the carrot on the stick. Lots of AFF members chasing status go the "long way" rather than the "short way" to get the extra SC's. The QFF member wins as he gets extra status and Qantas win because they fill seats on less popular time slots and sell ( or charge more) for the more popular times at other times.
Nothing sinister about it. Just good business and "play the game right" and everyone can be a winner

 

[Stoopidsteve]

Price vs Value
My wife is currently on a 140k Y world trip, her first international trip since first of three ASD children was born over 10 years ago. Her first holiday longer than a day or two without the kids. It's only a few stops and less than three weeks (I can only take so much leave to look after kids), but she's enjoying the trip so far (and of course getting WP seating access despite her being NB because redeemed on my points after big DONE4 last year here). I'm hoping her enjoyment means I will have fewer problems in future taking an extra day or two for SC runs to get more points for her to spend on solo holidays...

Price? 140K points plus about $1500 plus hotels and car hire.
Value? for her relaxation and family visits? Inestimable.

 

[amaroo]

Like all things - its horses for courses.

We use our points for long haul family hols, 4 seats every trip, every flight. We've found the best way to secure the prem seats is to book late, mainly BA or CX...classic awards. BA F to BKK was easy....pity its now gone:evil:

I'm afraid ASA & upgrades are not options.....

 

[tomo69]

Price vs Value
My wife is currently on a 140k Y world trip, her first international trip since first of three ASD children was born over 10 years ago. Her first holiday longer than a day or two without the kids. It's only a few stops and less than three weeks (I can only take so much leave to look after kids), but she's enjoying the trip so far (and of course getting WP seating access despite her being NB because redeemed on my points after big DONE4 last year here). I'm hoping her enjoyment means I will have fewer problems in future taking an extra day or two for SC runs to get more points for her to spend on solo holidays...

Price? 140K points plus about $1500 plus hotels and car hire.
Value? for her relaxation and family visits? Inestimable.

Happy wife happy life. Seems StoopidSteve not so stuoopid !!

 

[JohnK]

I value my QFF points at ~2.5c per point.

The calculation is simple as I value a Oneworld award in economy at ~$4,500 and assume that taxes are ~$1,000. That leaves ~$3,500 for airfare and the cost of the Oneworld award is 140,000 QFF points.

For the time being that is what I am prepared to redeem so no point in trying calculate anything else.

 

[Kangol]

For the time being that is what I am prepared to redeem so no point in trying calculate anything else.

Exactly. What your points are used for are your choice and to benefit you (or your beneficiaries).
If others can get 4c or 5c per point then great, but if you aren't going to use points for that type of redemption then it's not going to help you at all.

Reminds me of the quote: "Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing".
Oscar Wilde I think?

 

[dajop]

Great (albeit somewhat complicated to digest) analysis!

One other thing I also look at when valuing points, is product substitution. So whilst QF may charge a certain amount for a business class fare, competitors often have lower fares. For me, and I am sure many people, business class is the appealing thing, not specifically QF business class, therefore other airlines will often be a (more than) adequate substitute for QF (JQ being one very significant exception!!!). For example when valuing QF points and QF are charging $4.5K, yet SQ are charging $3.5K to get to same place in around the same time, I would use the $3.5K rather than the $4.5K. So a "substitute airline" cents per point is also a worthwhile parameter to consider.

Some examples of this:

One extreme - a real life example - last year I purchased an SQ business class fare to get back from Europe to my home (in Singapore) and onto Australia. The fare was ATH-MEL return as follows - ATH-SIN - 7 day stopover - MEL- 4 days - SIN- 11 month stopover -ATH. Fare cost was ~$3400 AUD. It really didn't matter where I flew from Europe, and comparable cheapest QF fare was around $5500 AUD. An award FRA-SIN/SIN-MEL-SIN/SIN-FRA would have been fine too. As essentially 4 separate awards, this would have been 288,000 QFF pts + $900 in taxes - (the Zone 10 OW being no good as not allowing two stopovers in same city) So to value my points, I would use the SQ fare - QF taxes. i.e. (3400-900)/288000*100 = 0.87c/point, let's call that the "SCPP" (substitute airline cents per point) vs QF 1.6cpp. So effectively using my QFF points on flying are offering little real value, as I could get a woolies gift voucher for not much less than that. But using your RV parameter , the equation is(18730/288000*0.015+$900) or 3.58. which doesn't sound too bad.

Even using the PER-JFK one way example you used above, looking at available substitute fares, and see that both SQ and CX @ $7600 are adequate substitutes for QF. So the SCPP is now only 5.5 . You could even say EK is an OK alternative (from PER anyway!) and their fare is $5000, reducing SCPP to 3.5. So, I don't think it's even worthwhile using the QF fare as my measure for CPP.

What I'm saying (I think!) is that you need to look at both CPP (or SCPP) and RV hand in hand to get a good measure of what the points use is really worth. If you don't jump certain hurdles on CPP/SCPP per point then forget looking at any other measures of value.

Of course it is always going to be different for different people .

 

[mulubinba]

What an interesting discussion! I feel compelled to contribute although I suspect I am probably going over old ground.


The truth is that points have no fixed value. If you could buy and sell them (say on E-Bay) the market would be able to set a price for them. But you can't.


Qantas must set a price to sell points to Amex, Woollies and their other QFF partners. They also need some way of measuring the profitability of their QFF business, so they must have economic models which would quantify the potential cost of all the unredeemed points out there. Their calculations would undoubtedly take into account the fact that there are lots of people who have small parcels of points which are effectively unusable, and that many people hoard points with the intention of making a big redemption but for some reason or other (eg death) never do. Of the points that are redeemed they would I guess just average out the cost per point of providing that redemption. Given all the factors involved I suspect that in their internal accounting the points are valued much lower than what they are worth to you or me.


The value to you or me is both inexact, fluctuating and different for accumulating vs redeeming. You need to do a calculation when accumulating points if there is a cost involved (eg purchasing a more expensive flight, incurring a credit card surcharge etc), but the calculation is different when you are thinking about spending points, because at this point the cost is irrelevant and one wants to get the maximum value from the points.


As evidenced by the contributions to this thread we all have our own way of valuing points. But as mentioned by Newk above it is not just a monetary calculation: collecting and redeeming points is also a game and the fun of playing that game adds a non-monetary benefit as well.


For me - I will pay a credit card surcharge that gets me points at 0.5 cents (and probably up to 1 cent ) per point. I will redeem points if I can convince myself that I am getting a value of around 2 cents per point.


What I never do (but probably should) is calculate the cost to me of choosing Qantas over alternatives just so I can get points. I suspect that those points actually cost much more than the values mentioned above, but i don't really want to know because I want to play the game!

 

[Stoopidsteve]

What I never do (but probably should) is calculate the cost to me of choosing Qantas over alternatives just so I can get points. I suspect that those points actually cost much more than the values mentioned above, but i don't really want to know because I want to play the game!

It is a LOYALTY program after all