QF's inflexibility re award seats

[sully]

I hate things that make no bloody sense.

My two sons are due to return from a month overseas from LAX. I shouted them flights to and from so they could then springboard into Central America. They are due to board the QF176 at 2355 LAX time and arrive in BNE tomorrow at 0745. They are then booked on QF517 to Sydney at 0920. Now, given the slimmest of margins allowed to them to get from Intl to Dom I asked what the contingency plan was.

The obvious answer was that if they miss this connection then they would be put on the next available flight. All sensible I suppose except for the fact that QF 176 contiues onto Sydney at 0915. This of course is the next flight out.


My question to QF was to ask why they couldn't stay on the flight and depart from the Intl at Sydney? The response, which I cannot believe, is that there are no FF seats available from BNE-SYD. (Admins, please supply a smiley of a steaming mound of .......)


Who the hell catches an international flight within Australia? And lets face it their bums are on a seat that is clearly unlikely to be taken.


The response from QF is silence as they are trained to do when asked questions that they are not supposed to answer. Any comment of "now that is silly isn't is?" is met with stony silence, compared to their usual effusiveness with non contentious matters.


In the wash up they will still get home etc etc but why does this very last step have to be so difficult, when it is patently clear what the solution should be?

 

[Baysider]

I guess they just have to follow the rules. Take some solace from the fact that any time they might lose in missing the planned domestic connection will be compensated for by getting through customs in between flights instead of after arriving in Sydney.

 

[simongr]

Who the hell catches an international flight within Australia? And lets face it their bums are on a seat that is clearly unlikely to be taken.

Actually quite a lot of people - certainly I always do if I have the chance especially in business class. You don't have to worry about customs/immigration and the lounges are much nicer.

I am not sure what QF have done wrong though - you have two people on an award ticket and want to switch to another flight on which there are no available seats? Is the implication that as you already have FF seats then you could just switch those between aircraft on the same route?

 

[Travel Guru]

Whilst on the surface it seems ridiculous, I guess you have to look at the bigger picture which is that if they make an exception for yourself, they have to for others also.

I wouldn't think call centre staff would have the power or discretion to waive such things as in the bigger picture it could severely affect yields if they were to do it when they perhaps shouldn't have, and any discretion to divert away from the R&R would then be open to abuse.

Having said all that, its a pity they couldn't as their transfer time is tight given the need to train it from INTL to DOM terminals.

TG

 

[sully]

I know rules are rules and all that. Also I am aware of the yield requirements that airlines have. Notwithstanding I am still amazed at the need to have the boys do what is stated. When the tickets came through I didn't question the routing because a flight was a flight and if they wanted to use my points then there were a couple of sacrifices to be made. It was only when I checked the routes the other day that I realised QF176 went through to Sydney. I would reiterate that even though I now know of one person who would take an international flight interstate, the numbers would be negligible surely, and that commonsense should apply at LAX when they check-in to be able to complete their flight through to SYD.

Of course if the incoming flight is late they will be on the next available domestic to SYD regardless of whether there are FF seats. Talk about stuffing up the load and yield rules.

 

[Dave Noble]

What QF staff did is exactly what I would expect them to do. There is no availability in the requisite booking class and so they cannot change to that flight

There is nothing silly about it; the same situation would exist with a paid ticket; if no availability in the booking class, then cannot book on it

Their "stony silence" could be nothing more than politeness

I think that Qantas's consistency in rule application is a good thing

Dave

 

[sully]

I know that when there is no availability in a particular class Qantas are not supposed to provide a seat.

It just seems so stupid that they have to get off the flight that would take them to Sydney so they can change terminals just to be likely to miss the flight on which they are booked. What status will their vacant seats have when they disembark?

So, judging from the posts I am the inflexible one?

 

[Platy]

Their "stony silence" could be nothing more than politeness

I think that Qantas's consistency in rule application is a good thing

Dave

Well, the alternative is for the QF staff to explain that the system is based on fare code allocations and no further seats are available in that fare class. Silence can be taken as rudeness, even if that was not the intention.

Of course thay all know that the system itself is not conducive to good customer service so probably prefer not to get involved in a discussion about the lack of award seats/availability on an aircraft with a significantly less than a full load.

As for consistency in rule application - that goes completely out of the window when local supervisors get control of the seat allocations some hours before the scheduled departure and all sorts of supposed rules are bent to suit the perceptions of the local person. In many cases that may include looking after the customer using some otherwise absent basic common sense. In other cases it favours staff and mates.

 

[Evan]

I wonder what effect taxes and charges has int he way award seats are allocated, ie do the international-domestic flights attract different taxes and charges ?

Sometimes i guess we just have to wonder what they are thinking but accept it is the way it is.

Similar logic to i booked a flight MEL-SYD-SIN once, was delayed out of MEL sitting in QP, had free seats on earlier flights and asked if i should get put on one.... no need to worry.... they held the SYD-SIN flight for me and a couple of other passengers (only a couple of mins but still late) and mean why some 3 or 4 other flights could have taken us

E

 

[Platy]

I would reiterate that even though I now know of one person who would take an international flight interstate, the numbers would be negligible surely

I often take domestic sectors of international flights, usually between CNS and SYD or BNE, although I have travelled BNE-SYD, SYD, BNE-SYD and between SYD and MEL on such services.

Loadings are generally a lot lighter than a comparable fully domestic service and in some cases there are very few people on board. This still does not stop QF supplying very limited numbers of award seats. There has been much discussion over the merit of such apparent lack of common sense elsewhere on his blog with varying degrees of support for the customer's (ie. customer first) versus the airline's (ie. profit before customer) point of view.

 

[Dave Noble]

Well, the alternative is for the QF staff to explain that the system is based on fare code allocations and no further seats are available in that fare class. Silence can be taken as rudeness, even if that was not the intention.

Which is what they did do originally

"My question to QF was to ask why they couldn't stay on the flight and depart from the Intl at Sydney? The response, which I cannot believe, is that there are no FF seats available from BNE-SYD"

When it came to comments such as

"now that is silly isn't is?"

is what was met with silence.

Dave

 

[Platy]

Which is what they did do originally

"My question to QF was to ask why they couldn't stay on the flight and depart from the Intl at Sydney? The response, which I cannot believe, is that there are no FF seats available from BNE-SYD"

No, Dave, that doesn't sound like the same thing to me, although I appreciate you may percieve it as such:

"no FF seats available" may summarise the system in 5 words or less, but does not equal a proper explanation of a system of fare codes, limited allocations, limited flexibility, etc. Many people assume that awards/upgrades are simply accessing empty seats and do not necesaarily appreciate the yield system being adopted by the airline that will deny access to seat that remains empty. Thus many are dumbfounded when they observe empty seats and can't get an award ticket or upgrade. Many expect the system to be more flexible to accommodate the customer.

Furthermore, the multi stop award booking engine does NOT allow access to the most convenient combination of flights even when appropriate fare codes are available - this MAY have happened in this case on the original booking.

QF is DELIBERATELY making multi stop combos inconvenient. Daft IMHO.

 

[Dave Noble]

No, Dave, that doesn't sound like the same thing to me, although I appreciate you may percieve it as such:

"no FF seats available" may summarise the system in 5 words or less, but does not equal a proper explanation of a system of fare codes, limited allocations, limited flexibility, etc.

To me, it meets the level to which the average person would understand; I would hardly expect the staff to run a training seminar on how the booking systems work. To explain that it cannot be booked due to there being no award availability seems reasonable to me

I would not expect the staff to respond ( and I would expect them to be trained to not make comments ) to "isnt that silly" type comments

Dave

 

[auriga]

It is a shame that there cannot be more flexibility in situations like this. I guess it is too much to expect.

 

[straitman]

It is a shame that there cannot be more flexibility in situations like this. I guess it is too much to expect.

auriga,

As posted many times on this topic and others, it is all in the lap of the dark forces of Yield Management and if anyone really thinks they understand I have the phone number of an inexpensive shrink :!:

 

[Febs]

Who the hell catches an international flight within Australia?

..about 20 FlyerTalkers/AFFers.

...but I do see where you're coming from.

 

[NM]

..about 20 FlyerTalkers/AFFers.

...but I do see where you're coming from.

And me last week (QF19 SYD-BNE).

 

[Travel Guru]

I actually have to agree with Dave on this one Platy, I think the QF staffer did the right thing by silently awaiting the next comment or decision of the passenger, after all, with the exception of Sully, the great majority of customers are difficult by nature these days, and often the only reasonable response to their comments is silence.

TG

 

[serfty]

Sully, There's nothing to stop you.them trying to get onto the though flight by asking:

• (You) Again, 2-3 days before the fight (availability may open) up
• Sons, When checking in in LAX
• Sons, At BNE International

As Platy posted:

...

As for consistency in rule application - that goes completely out of the window when local supervisors get control of the seat allocations some hours before the scheduled departure and all sorts of supposed rules are bent to suit the perceptions of the local person. In many cases that may include looking after the customer using some otherwise absent basic common sense. ...

 

[Platy]

great majority of customers are difficult by nature these days, and often the only reasonable response to their comments is silence.

That is indeed an unfortunate state of affairs. Perhaps some folk are just born difficult, badly empowered with manners, etc. Perhaps, also, the airlines don't help by creating expectations and then not delivering on them.

I am not totally convinced that stone-walling customers is a smart business move, although I recognise there are many folk out there in the dufus category...