Question about Oz-South Africa routes 20-25 years ago

[wafliron]

Not sure how much luck I'm going to have with this one, but thought it couldn't hurt to ask:

My family emigrated to Australia from South Africa in 1987, flying CPT-xJNB-xHRE-xPER-MEL. The xHRE-xPER leg was with QF. We went back to SA on holiday in late 1991 / early 1992, flying MEL-xHKG-xJNB-CPT and vv. The xHKG-xJNB flight was on CX.

On one of these trips the plane stopped for fuel in either Mauritius or Reunion - I can't remember which island, nor whether this was on the flight with QF in 1987 or the flight with CX in 1992. Can anyone remember the route QF/CX flew to South Africa back in 1987 / 1992 - which of these flights would have had a fuel stop along the way, and whether it would have been in Mauritius or Reunion?

If anyone is wondering why I'm asking: I've been updating my OpenFlights records, and this is the last detail I need to enter to have my whole life's worth of flying catalogued. Yes, I'm weird

Thanks.

 

[docjames]

In 1999 we flew SYD-PER-HRE-PER-SYD (but I believe it was a triangular route with some days going SYD-PER-JNB-HRE-PER-SYD and others SYD-PER-HRE-JNB-PER-SYD).

It would be more likely to be the HKG flight as it's further, as particularly eastbound as the 742s easily had the legs for HRE-PER back then. So likely to have been westbound but hard to know.

Still remember the very long takeoff roll at HRE - wondering if we were ever going to get airbourne......


And you're on AFF - entering you're entire life's flying is not weird!



Edit: I should add, QF withdrew from HRE either 1991 or 1992.

 

[juddles]

wafliron, first up, I cant help you with your quest - my first flights via Sth Africa were in the 90´s. But just letting you know I understand your interest, and wish you best of luck. I am still trying to track the exact flights I did in the early 70´s from Australia to the UK in a Lockheed Electra.

 

[wafliron]

In 1999 we flew SYD-PER-HRE-PER-SYD (but I believe it was a triangular route with some days going SYD-PER-JNB-HRE-PER-SYD and others SYD-PER-HRE-JNB-PER-SYD).

Who was that with, given you said QF withdrew from HRE in 1991/1992? And I assume no fuel stop on those flights?

It would be more likely to be the HKG flight as it's further, as particularly eastbound as the 742s easily had the legs for HRE-PER back then. So likely to have been westbound but hard to know.

Yeah I was thinking the same, but can't remember for sure. I feel like the fuel-stop was westbound on HKG-JNB, but all I can remember about it was staring out the window of the plane at palm trees (I was quite young at the time).

Edit: I should add, QF withdrew from HRE either 1991 or 1992.

That sounds about right: IIRC QF did not fly directly to South Africa during the later years of the apartheid regime (either due to policy or legislation - I'm not sure which) and hence used Harare as a location to collect / deposit passengers heading to/from South Africa. By 91/92 apartheid was in the process of being dismantled and the restriction was lifted, meaning they could switch to flying direct to South Africa.

And you're on AFF - entering you're entire life's flying is not weird![/QUOTE

Haha, fair point. Thanks for the assistance.

But just letting you know I understand your interest, and wish you best of luck. I am still trying to track the exact flights I did in the early 70´s from Australia to the UK in a Lockheed Electra.

Thanks Good luck tracking down that flight. It wasn't too hard for me to track down details of the flights I took in my early years due to the fact that my father kept all the old tickets. Unfortunately the stop in Mauritius / Reunion isn't shown though, probably due to the fact that it was a stop for fuel only.

 

[trooper]

Wow... that sounded like a really amazing trip... actually a bit too amazing so I got sensible and checked.. and found that the Model 10 Electra was not the only Lockheed product of that name...

A trip from here to the UK in the original Electra would REALLY be something!

Actually.. a trip in the Model 188 is still pretty special!!!

 

[Mwenenzi]

More likely to be HKG-JNB going east
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HRE-PE...G-run-jnb&PC=red&DU=mi&SU=kts&RS=best&RC=navy

 

[docjames]

Apologies that should have read withdrew ~ 2001-2002 not 1991-92. We flew QF in 1999.

 

[wafliron]

More likely to be HKG-JNB going east
Great Circle Mapper

Thanks Mwenezi - definitely agree it looks more likely on HKG-JNB or vv. Why do you say eastbound though?

Apologies that should have read withdrew ~ 2001-2002 not 1991-92. We flew QF in 1999.

Hmm, I actually thought you were correct re 1991/1992 (as per my above post). Maybe QF started flying to JNB sometime around then but actually kept HRE for an extra 10 years or so. Thanks for clarifying though.

 

[Mwenenzi]

Thanks Mwenezi - definitely agree it looks more likely on HKG-JNB or vv. Why do you say eastbound though?

Err: an error. Should be west, into the prevailing wind

These threads my be of interest
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ussion/old-1992-1995-qf-timetables-23100.html Look at post 9
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ions/need-help-locating-old-qantas-35719.html

 

[wafliron]

Err: an error. Should be west, into the prevailing wind

Right, OK, thanks for clarifying

These threads my be of interest
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ussion/old-1992-1995-qf-timetables-23100.html Look at post 9
http://www.australianfrequentflyer....ions/need-help-locating-old-qantas-35719.html

I just had a quick look through these but couldn't find anything useful unfortunately. Also, based on the majority opinion it sounds like I need old CX timetables rather than old QF ones.

Does anyone want a hazard a guess as to whether the fuel stop - regardless of whether it was on QF or CX - would have been on Reunion or Mauritius? My memory says Reunion but my father thinks Mauritius. Both airports appear to have runways long enough to handle a 747 - 3km+.

 

[juddles]

....
Actually.. a trip in the Model 188 is still pretty special!!!....

Definitely as in the Model 188. As in the same airframe the PC3´s are. 4 Engine prop. The flight was roughly Darwin, Bangladesh, India, Kuwait, Italy, somewhere else in Europe, UK. And similar return. The carrier was Monarch Airlines.

 

[overrun]

wafliron,

Those routes are pretty familiar to me from my own history.

I flew continuously back and forth between Australia and South Africa in the period 1986-1990 (and kept on flying back and forth thereafter but less frequently). By the time the SAA 747-200 'Magaliesburg' retired, I calculated that I had travelled over a million kilometres in it (if anyone sat in seat 34H and found that it sagged a little - that was my big bum).

In those days, the QF flight was from HRE-PER (and v.v.) because Oz politicians decreed that they could not fly directly to South Africa (apartheid government, etc). There were some humorous moments because the QF insurance would only cover the plane on the ground at HRE for 4 hours. This meant either a quick turnaround or trouble. On the occasions that there was a problem and the plane had to stay longer, QF then flew down to JNB empty and stayed there until it was time to return to HRE and pick up the pax and go. This flight never used a stopover, and there was no reason for even a tech stop at MRU or Reunion. The runways at both HRE and PER were very long and were adequate for an evening full load departure despite the altitude (HRE) or heat (PER).

I would think that the flight stopping over would have to be CX. My guess is that the stopover would have been weather related, with severe summer thunderstorms around JNB requiring extra holding fuel. PER-HRE is 5287 NM. HKG-HRE is 6246 NM. That extra 1000 NM needs disproportionately more fuel, and with 5600NM being close to the range limit of a laden 747-200, any extra fuel requirement would be really onerous on an already tight flight for CX. Looking at the route and options, I would think that MRU is much more likely to be used as the tech stop than Reunion because it is less distance off the great circle route HKG-JNB.

 

[wafliron]

I flew continuously back and forth between Australia and South Africa in the period 1986-1990 (and kept on flying back and forth thereafter but less frequently). By the time the SAA 747-200 'Magaliesburg' retired, I calculated that I had travelled over a million kilometres in it (if anyone sat in seat 34H and found that it sagged a little - that was my big bum).

Wow, that's seriously impressive. Assuming you were flying JNB-PER and vv, I make that to be somewhere around 120 one-way flights.

In those days, the QF flight was from HRE-PER (and v.v.) because Oz politicians decreed that they could not fly directly to South Africa (apartheid government, etc). There were some humorous moments because the QF insurance would only cover the plane on the ground at HRE for 4 hours. This meant either a quick turnaround or trouble. On the occasions that there was a problem and the plane had to stay longer, QF then flew down to JNB empty and stayed there until it was time to return to HRE and pick up the pax and go. This flight never used a stopover, and there was no reason for even a tech stop at MRU or Reunion. The runways at both HRE and PER were very long and were adequate for an evening full load departure despite the altitude (HRE) or heat (PER).

Hah, that's rather entertaining. Any idea what caused the insurance problem at HRE? IIRC Zimbabwe was fairly stable at that point in time.

I would think that the flight stopping over would have to be CX. My guess is that the stopover would have been weather related, with severe summer thunderstorms around JNB requiring extra holding fuel. PER-HRE is 5287 NM. HKG-HRE is 6246 NM. That extra 1000 NM needs disproportionately more fuel, and with 5600NM being close to the range limit of a laden 747-200, any extra fuel requirement would be really onerous on an already tight flight for CX. Looking at the route and options, I would think that MRU is much more likely to be used as the tech stop than Reunion because it is less distance off the great circle route HKG-JNB.

Thanks for the advice - that all sounds very logical.

Unless someone can step forward with definite information to suggest otherwise, I think I'm going to assume the stop was in MRU on the HKG-JNB flight. Thanks everyone!

EDIT: I was just looking at the flight paths on gcmap.com, which seem to suggest that RUN is marginally closer to the HKG-JNB great circle route? Great Circle Mapper

 

[overrun]

wafliron,

Not sure what specifically caused the limitation. At that time and because of the unsettled security situation immediately after independence and the continuing anti-government dissidence, the Zimbabwe government still kept in force the "state of emergency," which was first declared before UDI. Plus it was only a couple of years earlier in 1983-84 when the government sent in the army into areas of Matabeleland. Then Mugabe came to power in 1995. All that could well have given London insurers a picture of political instability and triggered the insurance concern.

Checking GC Mapper, I stand corrected: RUN is indeed slightly less off the great circle route than MRU. I still think MRU was the CX choice though, because the first leg from HKG is slightly shorter which means more payload out of HKG, and the extra distance via MRU is only 10 NM:

2 segment path: 6708 mi
HKG - MRU 4800 mi
MRU - JNB 1908 mi

2 segment path: 6698 mi
HKG – RUN 4934 mi
RUN - JNB 1764 mi

The runway at MRU is slightly longer, although both would still be adequate for the leg to JNB:
MRU: 3020m
RUN: 2670m

 

[wafliron]

Not sure what specifically caused the limitation. At that time and because of the unsettled security situation immediately after independence and the continuing anti-government dissidence, the Zimbabwe government still kept in force the "state of emergency," which was first declared before UDI. Plus it was only a couple of years earlier in 1983-84 when the government sent in the army into areas of Matabeleland. Then Mugabe came to power in 1995. All that could well have given London insurers a picture of political instability and triggered the insurance concern.

Fair enough, sounds logical - despite being born in that part of the world my knowledge of the political situation around that time is a bit sketchy - I was too young. Thanks for the info.

Checking GC Mapper, I stand corrected: RUN is indeed slightly less off the great circle route than MRU. I still think MRU was the CX choice though, because the first leg from HKG is slightly shorter which means more payload out of HKG, and the extra distance via MRU is only 10 NM:

Again, makes sense: thanks. I'll stick with HKG-xMRU-JNB as the most logical route.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Flew QF SYD/PER/HRE multiple times in both directions 1986 to 1992. No refueling stop in either direction. SA used MRU as refueling stop for Asia and Aus flights.

 

[airbound]

wafliron,

Checking GC Mapper, I stand corrected: RUN is indeed slightly less off the great circle route than MRU. I still think MRU was the CX choice though, because the first leg from HKG is slightly shorter which means more payload out of HKG, and the extra distance via MRU is only 10 NM:

2 segment path: 6708 mi
HKG - MRU 4800 mi
MRU - JNB 1908 mi

2 segment path: 6698 mi
HKG – RUN 4934 mi
RUN - JNB 1764 mi

The runway at MRU is slightly longer, although both would still be adequate for the leg to JNB:
MRU: 3020m
RUN: 2670m

Shouldn't we be using HKG.OLD?

2 segment path: 6724 mi
HKG.OLD-MRU: 4816 mi
MRU-JNB: 1908 mi

2 segment path: 6714 mi
HKG.OLD-RUN: 4950 mi
RUN-JNB: 1765 mi

HKG.OLD-JNB: 6648 mi

 

[overrun]

Nice one airbound. I didn't even know that trick "HKG.OLD", and I use GCM a lot

 

[airbound]

Nice one airbound. I didn't even know that trick "HKG.OLD", and I use GCM a lot

My pleasure overrun. I am not sure how I stumbled upon that trick; perhaps HKG.OLD was in a featured map at some stage!