Ripped off by Qantas holiday advertising

[Lonely Flyer]

Hey all,

Thanks for those responses. Looks like I'll be going to the samll claims tribunal & see what gives from that avenue.
Using the suggestions to pursue Qantas Holidays, I'll try that first, but when I have been on the phone to them, they redirect me to the Frequent Flyers department, then the FF dept say it's not their problem, it is Qantas Holidays & the merry go round continues.

If the tribunal costs $400 and I am successful, the points I would've been awarded would be about 21,000. That would cover say a 1 way flight to Auckland with some change of about 3000 points. I see it as paying $400 to get a 1 way flight to NZ. Not sure it's really worth it unless Qantas are also forced to pay my expenses at the tribunal.

cheers

I do not recall seeing where you are from but in QLD there is only a small application fee. I would sue for the cost of top up points as you would be short this amount if say you wanted to book J to LAX and back. I calculate that to be $597.50 for 21000 points. Your loss is not just what 21000 points can get you but how this affects your real aim.

 

[dajop]

I do not recall seeing where you are from but in QLD there is only a small application fee. I would sue for the cost of top up points as you would be short this amount if say you wanted to book J to LAX and back. I calculate that to be $597.50 for 21000 points. Your loss is not just what 21000 points can get you but how this affects your real aim.

Can the OP actually sue for the 21000 pts or does it have to be for the cost of the points? If the former I'd be going for that, correcting what is right and not appearing to be a gold digger. Trying to assign a value to points can be extremly problematic, as at the other end of the spectrum QF could argue that it using 8,000 pts for a flight, SYD-OOL which can be purchased for $79-$40 in taxes, making 21,000 pts worth only $102.

 

[Dave Noble]

Can the OP actually sue for the 21000 pts or does it have to be for the cost of the points? If the former I'd be going for that, correcting what is right and not appearing to be a gold digger. Trying to assign a value to points can be extremly problematic, as at the other end of the spectrum QF could argue that it using 8,000 pts for a flight, SYD-OOL which can be purchased for $79-$40 in taxes, making 21,000 pts worth only $102.

It is v hard to sue for points compared to monetary value. Asisgning a notional value or use the amount which QF would charge to purchase the points is really the only way that I would suggest going

Dave

 

[Mal]

I think assigning a value of $X based on the rate Qantas would sell a person the points is the best valuation someone can make of the loss of points.

This is an interesting situation. I think it is best handled by threatening going to small claims court, or settling before the date, rather than actually going. Qantas/Qantas Holidays (or more likely their legal representatives) would probably settle out of court as a 'once off/non-prejudicial offer' or similar perhaps with a confidentiality clause rather than fronting up before a judge and spending several thousands in expenses total.

The biggest issue I see is trying to get a Judge (or clerk, or other form of officialdom) to understand the problem, ie. the 'contract' that was agreed to, and the loss created from the points not being credited. Points aren't cash, and you can't touch them. That's not something I'd want to try and explain succinctly, so you would want to be definitely prepared for that.

I won't comment on my opinions of the offer and the assorted documentation that came with it. Qantas and their friends do look at this forum at times, so anything said about the offer could later be used as a defence or similar by them.

As has been said, ensure you target the correct legal entity. If you choose the wrong one, then your claim is easily thrown out.

 

[harrribo]

I my view it`s clearly " FALSE ADVERTISING ".

Try to find out more through you local free Leag Help Centre / Legai Aid.
Qantas FF is not how it should be anyways, & now to resort to this ?
Good Luck mate :!:

Check out this attachment.
It clearly advertises holidays to the UK and get double QFF points! What a great offer, so I booked and had my nice holiday last July/Aug.

I am still waiting for the double points.
I have phoned Qantas heaps of times & have been fobbed off, transferred & dismissed.

So I finally wrote a letter & got an answer.
Basically the double points are not flight (or mileage) points but "booking" points, whatever that means! This is NOT made clear in any part of their advertising & they even admitted that! The dbl points are points earned in a similar fashion as if I booked a hotel or hired a car & got dbl points for those.

So now I have gone to the ACCC, but it doesn't look like they are going to get me my points which I reckon I deserve. They reckon it is too old to get Qantas to act on anything. All they might be able to do is get Qantas to make their advertising clearer.

Can someone here suggest how I might get Qantas to award me the doubled points as their advertising clearly says?

thx

 

[straitman]

I my view it`s clearly " FALSE ADVERTISING ".

Try to find out more through you local free Leag Help Centre / Legai Aid.
Qantas FF is not how it should be anyways, & now to resort to this ?
Good Luck mate :!:

harrribo,

Welcome to AFF and good on you for wading in on such a controversial issue.

 

[JohnK]

Just underneath the offer and before the terms & conditions is a statement

"Earn double Qantas Frequent Flyer points to UK & Europe until 29 December 2006!"

and in the terms and conditions it states

"Bonus points offer valid for air and land bookings made by December 29,2006."

Nowhere does it state that the offer is double QFF points for flights, only for air and land bookings. Double QFF points for flights and double QFF points for air and land bookings are totally separate statement. I see nothing misleading in the brochure just a misunderstanding of what is offered.

To me 29 December 2006 is very clear. Yes I know that none of the travel periods listed are before 29 December 2006 but this is the catch. We are assuming that they are offering double QFF points for flights. Where does it state this in the brochure?

Qantas Holidays generally only offer QFF points for $value spent with then and I think the double QFF points offer relates to this and nothing to do with double QFF earned through flying.

Good luck but I do not think you have any chance. I think serfty has interpreted it the same way.

 

[dajop]

Nowhere does it state that the offer is double QFF points for flights, only for air and land bookings. Double QFF points for flights and double QFF points for air and land bookings are totally separate statement. I see nothing misleading in the brochure just a misunderstanding of what is offered.

There is nowhere that the brochure states that flights are not eligible either. For those that are well informed (such as most on this board), it would be reasonably obvious what was intended. But I am sure to the less well informed it would be easily to confuse the two, with a reference to air and land bookings could easily be confused for flights, after all what is an air booking? I guess the counter argument would be that the QFF'rs should be familiar with T&C around Qantas Holidays bookings, and this may be the catch. Nevertheless, as advised in an earlier post, would try a final letter of demand (for points not cash). Worth a try.

 

[kkutasi]

This is a great thread. well done everyone.

As a solicitor who practises commercial litigation, i have been reading this with interest. I have a couple of comments to make:

1) ignore the CTTT. you would be wasting your time. i agree with Dave Noble's suggestion to go through the Small Claims Division of the Local Court. i am willing to help you put it together if you like

2) You should sue for both "breach of contract" and offences against various sections of the Trade Practices Act for false advertising and misleading and deceptive conduct. Fines under the TPA can be up to $33,000 per offence (which would go to you if you won), so QF may freak out about this

3) Your filing fee would only be $73 (not $400 as some have suggested).

4) I think the arguments about how to price the points is unnecessary. You can make an Unliquidated Claim for the points. Money does not need to come into it.

5) I think it was Mal who said you can get your legal costs back if you win. This is a common misconception. You can only get "scale costs". This means that your costs are capped, regardless of how much your legal fees actually are. You are therefore better off running this yourself or with the help of someone for free (again, i am willing to assist)

6) on the other side however, if you lost, QF would also only be able to get scale costs back too. So you would only be looking at a couple of hundred dollars at worst i would suggest

7) i agree with the suggestion to send a final letter (from a lawyer) threatening legal action unless you get your points. They may possibly then credit them to you rather than have a fight that will waste more of their time than they could be bothered with

 

[Youfah Mizzum]

Hi all,

kttutsai - you're on! I'll take you up on your offer so I'll be sending you a message offline if I can.
I don't want it to take up too much of your time, but I still consider I have a good case.

cheers all

 

[straitman]

Hi all,

kttutsai - you're on! I'll take you up on your offer so I'll be sending you a message offline if I can.
I don't want it to take up too much of your time, but I still consider I have a good case.

cheers all

Danster, (& kttutsai)

Let us all know how you get on.

 

[medhead]

Thanks for the thread heaps.

Sorry to say I agree with JohnK. The fine print say

Bonus points offer valid for air and land bookings made by December 29, 2006.​

The dbl points and the time period relates to the bookings not the flight. But I also think the lack of punctuation leaves it open to interpretation. So Good luck.

Also double thanks because this reminded me that I booked a flight via QH at a similar time and they haven't given me any points at all.

Nowhere does it state that the offer is double QFF points for flights, only for air and land bookings.

 

[kkutasi]

Thanks for the thread heaps.

Sorry to say I agree with JohnK. The fine print say

Bonus points offer valid for air and land bookings made by December 29, 2006.​

The dbl points and the time period relates to the bookings not the flight. But I also think the lack of punctuation leaves it open to interpretation. So Good luck.

how do you get mileage points on a flight then if you don't make an air booking?

 

[simongr]

Points awarded for air/land bookings

You get points for making bookings through QF holidays dont you?

 

[kkutasi]

Points awarded for air/land bookings

You get points for making bookings through QF holidays dont you?

indeed... and you also get points for your flights.

this is the point. they said double points for a booking, not double points only for the QF Holidays portion. A reasonable person would think they were getting double mileage points, which is why the pax is so upset - particularly when a consultant also confirmed that his impression was correct (which they now say is not the case)

 

[Anna]

I agree with kkutasi. I think it is misleading. Some very experienced travellers might pick up the difference but I think the average person would expect to get double mileage points based on what is in the ad.

Playing devil's advocate, I would think some of the arguments in opposition might be 1. that there was no reliance on the misleading and deceptive conduct (easily rebutted by the plaintiff, so include something about it upfront in your letter of demand), and 2. that the defendant Qantas Holidays (whatever its correct corporate name is) has no power to compel Qantas to issue double mileage points. Therefore I suggest having an alternative remedy in mind in case they make a settlement offer.

 

[oz_mark]

I have had a read through it, and I would agree with kkutasi's reading of it. It certainly maked no statement that the points are not for the flights, indeed there is no statement about what is being doubled.

I have no doubt that they knew exactly what they meant when the framed the advertsiement, if it does only apply to the booking points, then it is extremely poorly worded.

 

[medhead]

It certainly maked no statement that the points are not for the flights, indeed there is no statement about what is being doubled.

I have no doubt that they knew exactly what they meant when the framed the advertsiement, if it does only apply to the booking points, then it is extremely poorly worded.

By the same token it did make a statement that the points ARE for bookings. Why would one think the points were for the flights in that case? Especially as QH is in the business of booking flights not flying people around.

However, I do agree that it is very poorly worded and I look forward to hearing how it all works out. And good on the OP for taking it up, this sort of thing needs to be tackled.

how do you get mileage points on a flight then if you don't make an air booking?

You don't!
But if you make a booking with QH you get points for booking via QH. Then when you flight with QF, you get points from QF for flying.

 

[Dougo]

Hi Danster

Good on you for being outraged and wanting to see this matter through. Hopefully whichever path your take - the Office of Fair Trading's tribunal or Small Claims - you'll be able to get some satisfaction. As I've been down the path of the Tribunal twice before re: holidays gone wrong, I've sent you a rather long winded email about how I've approached the Tribunal and how I've prepared my "case" - both instances were successful.

Good luck

regards
Dougo

 

[JohnK]

By the way good luck with chasing up what you feel is owed to you.

indeed... and you also get points for your flights.

this is the point. they said double points for a booking, not double points only for the QF Holidays portion.

But I am not sure this is the point. The advertising was for QF Holidays and only double points for air/land bookings. Nowhere is the word flight mentioned for double points promotion. It is very clear to me. How would you misinterpret the statement? Perhaps a little too eager and not reading the fine print.

By the way I did receive double points once for an international flight and various times for domestic flights on Qantaslink. But this was clearly worded to specify that if you fly in a specified time frame you will be eligible for double points promotion. And this was through QF not QF Holidays.

I agree with kkutasi. I think it is misleading. Some very experienced travellers might pick up the difference but I think the average person would expect to get double mileage points based on what is in the ad.

Again I don't think there is anything misleading in the advertising.

I clearly understand that the double points offer is only for the QF Holidays part of the booking. Just because a less experienced traveller does not understand does not make them entitled to the double points for flights in any way.