Should we feel guilty about flying?

[Mattg]

Given the enormous, detrimental environmental impact of flying, there is a growing movement in some parts of the world to either stop or drastically reduce the amount of flying being done. One such place is Sweden, where they have even created a new word "flygskam" which means "the shame of flying". Sweden is now proposing new emissions taxes aimed at the aviation sector.

The movement is particularly aimed at "unnecessary" flying, i.e. flying when there would be a suitable land-based alternative. The SYD-CBR route is perhaps one example. Flying to Noumea and back for status credits would be another.

Meanwhile, French politicians are considering banning domestic flights altogether for environmental reasons. France is not a huge country (relatively) and is fairly well-connected by high-speed trains.

Even the ABC had an article about this recently: Is giving up flying the best way to stop climate change?

What do you think... is there a point to this anti-flying movement and should we all give up flying?

Personally I can't see myself giving up flying as it allows me to travel to so many interesting parts of the world and learn so much about other countries and cultures. But to make me feel slightly less guilty, I have started paying the extra fee to offset my carbon emissions where offered.

 

[kookaburra75]

After having spent a large part of my earlier working life as a Surveyor, driving long distances (1500-2500 km) from home just to get to my place of work, being able to fly rather than spend even the 3 to 4 hour drive from Canberra to Sydney I can live with. With my business, I can do day trips from Canberra to Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Sydney by flying, which I couldn't do by road - and I get to be home at night. I know my work colleagues in the UK are amazed we drive so far - meaning an hour to go somewhere for lunch - I explain we drive further just to get the bread and milk. So I get the European outlook, but if they had to travel as far as we do, they might think differently.
But I too pay for the carbon offset for each flight as I want to try and minimise my carbon footprint, as I recognise flying does have an impact.

 

[ajd]

Shameless plug for Cool Earth - according to a report from the Effective Altruism organisation Giving What We Can, they are the most cost-effective direct climate action charity out there - able to counteract emissions for the cost of potentially as low as US$0.38 per tonne of CO2e. They work with rainforest communities in the Amazon and other places to ensure that they don't sell their forest land to logging companies.

As with all things climate - yeah, we should feel some guilt about it, but on the other hand it's a collective problem that needs to be dealt with at a governmental and corporate level, not just through individual action. So many areas of society are utterly dependent on aviation so it's not going away any time soon. Particularly for us Australians, where we're constantly afflicted by the tyranny of distance both domestically and internationally.

Electric planes are the future and airlines need to be pushing even harder on their manufacturers to make this happen.

But we should build a HSR line from CBR-SYD. The existence of the CBR-SYD air route is pretty dumb. And the rest of our long-distance rail network is an utter mess.

(FWIW - I do like the idea of incremental taxes proposed by the article you link regarding France. I have absolutely no idea how you'd make it work administratively, but such a scheme can easily be structured to be low-tax for most leisure travellers while encouraging big business to think harder about how to change its travel habits.)

 

[FrankP]

I'm in CBR, and feel no guilt whatsoever about flying. I can see the validity in the "don't fly" views but viable alternatives must exist. I'll toss-up b/w driving and flying here to SYD. Depending on where I'm headed and for how long - flying CBR-SYD can sometimes be longer and more annoying!
Would I use a rail link? Actually yes, with pleasure. I've done the high-speeders in GER and FRA and loved them. If we had a high-speed to SYD I'd even seriously consider working there occasionally. BUT. Back in the real world it should be noted very clearly that the CBR-SYD rail is 4.5 hrs of cough, has been for the the 35+yrs I've lived here, and has never ever been on my radar. A bus runs every hour! CBR-MEL is even worse. And the blame for that sits squarely and wholly on the various governments before I'll even think of holding myself to any sort of account.
A high-speed rail right up the east coast should have been a national success story many years ago and would definitely help in a country the size of Oz. But inadequate govts (the kind we now have all over continuing to push coal, ignore envt laws, wiping out the Murray Darling) means I don't intend to alter my approach and let them point a finger and say "YOU need to make more effort (while we do nothing)".
And yep, I pay the carbon offset, its a few bucks and I just have to trust its used as intended.

 

[ajd]

I'm in CBR, and feel no guilt whatsoever about flying. I can see the validity in the "don't fly" views but viable alternatives must exist. I'll toss-up b/w driving and flying here to SYD. Depending on where I'm headed and for how long - flying CBR-SYD can sometimes be longer and more annoying!
Would I use a rail link? Actually yes, with pleasure. I've done the high-speeders in GER and FRA and loved them. If we had a high-speed to SYD I'd even seriously consider working there occasionally. BUT. Back in the real world it should be noted very clearly that the CBR-SYD rail is 4.5 hrs of cough, has been for the the 35+yrs I've lived here, and has never ever been on my radar. A bus runs every hour! CBR-MEL is even worse. And the blame for that sits squarely and wholly on the various governments before I'll even think of holding myself to any sort of account.
A high-speed rail right up the east coast should have been a national success story many years ago and would definitely help in a country the size of Oz. But inadequate govts (the kind we now have all over continuing to push coal, ignore envt laws, wiping out the Murray Darling) means I don't intend to alter my approach and let them point a finger and say "YOU need to make more effort (while we do nothing)".
And yep, I pay the carbon offset, its a few bucks and I just have to trust its used as intended.

As a fellow Canberran I 100% agree on the need for HSR to Sydney - even completely ignoring the climate aspect of it, it's ridiculous that we don't have it.

That said, I'm a regular CountryLink customer and I reserve flying to SYD only for when I have onwards connections. (Driving isn't an option as I don't own a car.) It's expensive, slow, only runs 3x a day, occasionally metamorphises into a bus on short notice, etc, though it's infinitely more comfortable than the bus and I'm usually a happy customer.

 

[Happy Dude]

I'm in CBR too, and I have no qualms whatsoever about flying to Sydney. I don't like driving anywhere generally and I'd rather rot in hell than risk my life on the Hume. I would take a rail service if it were economical and efficient.

But there probably is a point to such a movement. A bit like the electric cars target perhaps, in that if we all do a bit, something even, then it's a step in the right direction.

Perhaps the airlines could make air travel less desirable, if there's such a thing, by closing all frequent flyer programs, lounges, priority desks and so on...?
That'll make folks think twice about the need to fly

 

[ajd]

Perhaps the airlines could make air travel less desirable, if there's such a thing, by closing all frequent flyer programs, lounges, priority desks and so on...?
That'll make folks think twice about the need to fly

It's interesting that aviation is the only form of transport with such a comprehensive set of loyalty programs. Plenty of other transport operators have some form of loyalty program of course, but only in aviation are loyalty programs with lounges, non-airline earn and burn partners, international alliances, etc ubiquitous concepts...

 

[RooFlyer]

No.

But I'm happy for all the Greens and their fellow travelers to take the lead on this.

 

[Justinf]

Not really applicable in Australia as there are no better alternatives.
Europe and Japan, the high speed rail is often a better alternative than flying.

 

[trooper]

Do we have the population base to support HSR from SYD-CBR? As for me I intentionally purchased a house near work...and WALK every day... in fact I routinely use my car only on weekends - no choice as there is no bus to the Pistol club lol. Over the last 10 years I have averaged LESS than 9000 klm a year in my car...(and that includes an annual 2200 klm return trip where no other transport options exist.) …..so no..I don't feel terribly guilty about a few flights overseas.

P.S. Something that is no doubt NOT solely a Canberra thing? Cars with the full range of "Stop climate change" 'ban this and that" type bumper stickers.... driving along at peak hour...with ONE person in the car!!! Now THAT irritates me....

 

[drron]

Between us we only drive our cars 6000Km a year total.
When the climate change religion stops holding regular conferences around the world flying in thousands I will feel no guilt flying OS.
Besides there is very little evidence that warming 2C will cause the disasters that the zealots predict.

 

[opusman]

Besides there is very little evidence that warming 2C will cause the disasters that the zealots predict.

Back in the 60s you'd have been one of those doctors advertising for cigarette companies wouldn't you

 

[dajop]

As a fellow Canberran I 100% agree on the need for HSR to Sydney - even completely ignoring the climate aspect of it, it's ridiculous that we don't have it.

I guess the cost to upgrade to HSR, isn't that different, but I can't believe there has never been an upgrade to a SFTSR* service. I guess it's the tracks, but a 2.5 hr service between the two cities, probably wouldn't be hard to achieve.

* Slightly Faster Than Slow Rail

 

[drron]

Back in the 60s you'd have been one of those doctors advertising for cigarette companies wouldn't you

Absolutely not as I trained in respiratory medicine.
if you believe the disaster scenario can you show me where in the IPCC scientific reports it says that.Sure the final report after governments and NGOs have their input the report is more alarming but they are not scientists.
No evidence that severe weather events are becoming more or less frequent.Droughts and floods worse in some places but less severe in others.
More people die of cold weather than hot weather if the average temperature is lower or higher than 5C.two studies in the Lancet.plus-

Burden and Risk Factors for Cold-Related Illness and Death in New York City - PMC

Exposure to cold weather can cause cold-related illness and death, which are preventable. To understand the current burden, risk factors, and circumstances of exposure for illness and death directly attributed to cold, we examined hospital ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Elderly Victorians being treated for hypothermia as heating costs bite

Authorities alarmed after study finds 87% of hypothermic elderly hospital emergency patients were indoors

www.theguardian.com

Cold weather is a bigger killer than extreme heat – here’s why

Most people are acutely aware of the toll the heat can take on human life. So it may come as a surprise that more Australians die from the cold than the heat.

theconversation.com

Higher rate of hypothermia deaths in SA than in Sweden

www.adelaide.edu.au

 

[opusman]

 

[Franky]

For those who feel the need to ease their guilt, go right ahead and pay the emissions offsets, but as the old Navy saying goes - it’s like pissing in the wind. It’ll achieve about as much as the Paris Accords will. As you would expect when the subject of necessary travel arises, the old chestnut of HSR on the ‘East Coast’ gets a mention. The reality is that we don’t have the necessary population nor tax base from which to fund such a massive undertaking.

We have a country the size of Western Europe with a population of 25m. They have 400m+, along with the huge number of tourists to support their HSR systems. It would take untold billions of dollars and decades to build such a system in this country. What would those who propose HSR suggest powered such a network - solar and wind? Seriously?

As we thankfully missed out on electing a government which wanted to phase out coal, and have us all driving electric cars by 2030, then there aren’t many options left. Until the magic energy source is invented which can be produced which overcomes all the nasties, we’re stuck with what we’ve got.

 

[FrankP]

Many(!) moons ago I’d hoped that IF a SYD-Mittagong-Goulburn-CBR-ALB-MEL HSR was indeed built that it would be sponsored by the govt so that tix would remain well sold even if something of a loss for a time. The reason being that over time I think companies, jobs and infrastructure would move to those larger country centres and all the non-city benefits they could provide. Including (Invisible-friend-permitting) international airports)! Taking the strain off the big cities and giving big returns on the govt loss/investment.
But then I made a mistake and watched The Castle. Where I was told “Tell ‘I’m e’s dreamin”. And it all made tragic sense ever since.
Woe is us, pass the beer.
As for the OP question, like I said in the absence of intelligent govt I can’t feel embarrassed by flying. I agree with the comment above about green groups flying to conferences. Interesting that the most effective project I can think of in recent history (noting Cbr’s heavy investment in solar) was Tesla and Sth Aust.

 

[JohnPhelan]

Perhaps the airlines could make air travel less desirable, if there's such a thing, by closing all frequent flyer programs, lounges, priority desks and so on...?
That'll make folks think twice about the need to fly

Unsurprisingly, airlines are not in the business of making air travel less desirable! They want more people to fly and more often.

Bear in mind also the many thousands of people in Australia who are employed in aviation and the industries which support it.

 

[drron]

Good try opusman but I am a physician.Even in the 60s we believed in the evil of smoking.Sir Richard Doll,a physician,published a review showing the link between smoking and lung cancer in 1950.In 1955 he published a case control study proving the link.

You should look up asthma cigarettes of the 1920s.active ingredient cannabis.

 

[stm1sydney]

Given the enormous, detrimental environmental impact of flying,

There is no empirical evidence for this. Unlikely and unproven.