Singapore Airlines and Flight Centre falling out ?

[FL360]

No offence, but I think you're talking out your cough there...

I'm curious, why would it take an agent any time at all to determine what fare class your ticket is booked into when they can't make a booking in the first place without knowing it.
If the ticket hasn't been booked, all you have to do is check a fare sheet which takes, um gee, 3 quarters of a second to read the 'fare class' section, and if it has already been booked, all you have to do is bring up the booking in the GDS and it's right in front of you.


Clearly you've never worked in the industry and are just spouting opinion which is way off the mark.


I'm also curious, what evidence do you have to backup your statement that 70% of agents can only handle a simple routings effectively??
Have you done a study, or are you just basing that on the random sample of perhaps 3-4 agents you've used in the past???


Next time don't confuse your opinions with fact, they seem to be poles apart.

TG

I am not talking out of my cough, this is just me and my friends general opinion and experiences about TAs, me and my friends travel a lot...

I do not work in this industry and thank god I don't need to.

If I am going to do a statistical sample of TA's knowledge, for example XONEX etc, I believe the result will be much lower than 70%...

Some TAs are very good and in the know, but they are less common...

and remember, common quotes from TAs...

"On sir/mam it does not include tax, please add $800 to the price"
"On you paying by credit card ?, please add 4% to that", or you can EFTPOS now, I can hold it for two hours max.."

 

[Keith009]

FL360 - on the contrary I have found it easier to book simple routings online (say a return MEL-SIN-MEL in T), and have found TAs very useful for more complex bookings (mixed classes, interlined fares etc).

The problem with RTW fares is that TAs don't just specialise in a single type or alliance of fares unlike most of the experts on the FT OW forum or on AFF who might hold formidable knowledge in one type of fares but not others. TAs have to keep abreast of different types of fares across different alliances, even the mini RTWs, and their respective rule changes (and as anyone who've booked these will know - changes happen a fair bit). TAs are expected to have a general knowledge of all fares they sell.

Also, if a TA doesn't have an inhouse ticketing department (which a lot of smaller TAs don't) they do have to get an airline tariffs desk or consolidator to produce a fare quote for RTW or multi continent fares in order for the booking to be ticketed. And the individual airlines or consolidators all have their own policies - eg I know for a fact that AA will not price an agency booking if there aren't any AA transoceanic sectors, and I've been knocked back by CX for not having the first flight on them (even if i have some pretty big sectors like JFK-HKG with them), and it's not uncommon for Australian consolidators to want TAs to plate on QF so they get a bigger cut of the commissions. This is why we have the constant horror stories on forums about TAs refusing to plate on AA or denying certain routings - the TAs are essentially quoting what a tariffs desk or consolidator has told them, and they risk hefty debit memos from the airlines if there are any discrepancies.

I have a basic knowledge of Sabre and am amazed at how much more I can do with it than ploughing through different airline websites or ringing up airline offices - let alone a good TA who would be able to do a lot more.

 

[MelUser]

I think generalised unwarranted travel agent bad mouthing is uncalled for.

I have an excellent relationship with my TA.

 

[Travel Guru]

I do not work in this industry and thank god I don't need to.

I know, I do find it so terribly difficult to scrape by on the meagre wage I pay myself...

TG

 

[FL360]

MelUser, lucky you.

 

[serfty]

A good relationship with a good TA can be invaluable.

Most TA staff when asked what booking class will answer "Economy" rather than O or B or S etc. This is because most of their customers either don't know/care about that detail and would give a blank look when answered something like "O" class.

Once you have a TA who knows what you are looking for, understands rather than being intimidated by the level of your knowledge and is happy to work with you then all can be quite fine.

The problem is that such are a rare breed and those who have such nous quickly move on to be replaced with another rep you you have to "break in" again.

I have dealt with several of these great TAs over the years but find it far easier these days to do the legwork myself.

 

[Cabbage]

Flight Centre 'punishing' airlines
By Geoff Easdown

AUSTRALIA's biggest travel agency, Flight Centre, set out last month to use its sales muscle to "punish" airlines by demanding higher commissions.
Managing director Graham Turner emailed the company's 800 franchise outlets on April 2 with a plan to hit one or two carriers.

He advocated an arrangement in which Flight Centre would cease selling tickets for airlines that on their own websites undercut Flight Centre.

"These poor economic times give us a chance to get at and punish those carriers (only one or two) who are trying to undercut us on the web thus costing us in price beats," Mr Turner said in the email.

Flight Centre 'punishing' airlines | Travel News | News.com.au

Based on this information thats just come to hand, I believe that the sympathy displayed for Flight Centre's plight thus far may in fact be quite unwarranted. They're obviously not happy with the dirt cheap airfares being offered direct to the public at the moment to fill seats, so have taken to blackmailing one of the biggest airlines in the world to raise their commissions.

Hope this plan of theirs backfires big time.

 

[Mal]

Based on this information thats just come to hand, I believe that the sympathy displayed for Flight Centre's plight thus far may in fact be quite unwarranted.

The slimey coughs. I always love leaked emails... they kind of tell the truth at times

Flight Centre need to realise that their distribution model is just about dead, and they need to get with the times. The one simple thing they can do????

- Implement online ticketing of overseas flights - oops, no can do... Too hard

 

[wiz]

Flight Centre 'punishing' airlines | Travel News | News.com.au

Based on this information thats just come to hand, I believe that the sympathy displayed for Flight Centre's plight thus far may in fact be quite unwarranted. They're obviously not happy with the dirt cheap airfares being offered direct to the public at the moment to fill seats, so have taken to blackmailing one of the biggest airlines in the world to raise their commissions.

Hope this plan of theirs backfires big time.

If you were a retail business selling merchandise, consider this;

1. You went to a wholesaler and negotiated and paid for the lowest price available on a specific line of goods because you were the market leader in selling those goods to the public.
2. That wholesaler then subsequently sold those goods directly to the public at a cheaper rate than what you purchased, meaning that your 5% - 8% margin is now negative.

Do you think that would have been professional business practice by the wholesaler? Would you continue to buy their stock and sell it at a higher price? And would you want to deal with them again in the future, or go to another supplier to source your inventory?

This is a strategy by FC to protect their very narrow margins. They are a business trying their best to succeed and without using their muscle their margins would eventually be reduced to zero, meaning that they would have to start charging service fees on zero commission sales. This has already happened to some effect, but is not currently the norm with their business.

However, in order to maintain their price beat policy, they would have to sell these SQ fares at a loss. This is obviously not a good long-term strategy for making profit! For this reason I am sympathetic to their plight.

 

[one9]

If you were a retail business selling merchandise, consider this;

1. You went to a wholesaler and negotiated and paid for the lowest price available on a specific line of goods because you were the market leader in selling those goods to the public.
2. That wholesaler then subsequently sold those goods directly to the public at a cheaper rate than what you purchased, meaning that your 5% - 8% margin is now negative.

Do you think that would have been professional business practice by the wholesaler? Would you continue to buy their stock and sell it at a higher price? And would you want to deal with them again in the future, or go to another supplier to source your inventory?

This is a strategy by FC to protect their very narrow margins. They are a business trying their best to succeed and without using their muscle their margins would eventually be reduced to zero, meaning that they would have to start charging service fees on zero commission sales. This has already happened to some effect, but is not currently the norm with their business.

However, in order to maintain their price beat policy, they would have to sell these SQ fares at a loss. This is obviously not a good long-term strategy for making profit! For this reason I am sympathetic to their plight.

But if FC can't add value to the offering, then they should not get the business. The market would be better if FC closed down and consumers dealt with SQ directly. This would lead to greater efficiency in the market.

I am not saying that this is what should happen. This is only a better outcome if:
(a) FC don't add value to the offering. And I presume they do.
(b) There is enough competition with the other airlines to prevent SQ taking advantage of the situation.

 

[FL360]

Someone forgot to paste the last sentence of the report

"Mr Turner suggested the "next in line" could be a Middle Eastern carrier."

I am thinking EK....

Anyway, as Australians are getting more internet savvy, FC is facing a uphill battle....

 

[wiz]

But if FC can't add value to the offering, then they should not get the business. The market would be better if FC closed down and consumers dealt with SQ directly. This would lead to greater efficiency in the market.

Reduced competition would not be better for the Australian market. That was a very odd statement!

I think there is some added value through purchasing through a (good) TA, as in the after-sales service, but would concede that this is becoming less necessary as the internet becomes a more and more popular tool for booking travel.

 

[Cabbage]

Reduced competition would not be better for the Australian market. That was a very odd statement!

I think there is some added value through purchasing through a (good) TA, as in the after-sales service, but would concede that this is becoming less necessary as the internet becomes a more and more popular tool for booking travel.

The issue here is not about reducing competition. Its about eliminating unnecessary costs so that the final price paid by consumers is as low as possible - eliminating inefficiancies benefits everyone.

Given the level of after sales service required when booking a simple point to point flight these days is virtually non-existent for the majority of people, if FC have to resort to these kinds of dirty tactics to make a buck, then they shouldn't be in the business of selling flights.

 

[one9]

Reduced competition would not be better for the Australian market. That was a very odd statement!

I think there is some added value through purchasing through a (good) TA, as in the after-sales service, but would concede that this is becoming less necessary as the internet becomes a more and more popular tool for booking travel.

My wording is a little confusing... I am saying ... It is better for FC to close down IF they don't add value.

There would not necessarily be less competition as the airlines compete against each other (providing there are enough airlines and not monopolistic competition). Taking out the TA would result in less inefficiency and would lead to cheaper prices for consumers.

However this argument at the moment may be flawed as:
* It is likely FC do add value
* There many not be enough airlines to ensure a fully competitive market.

 

[Mal]

If Flight Centre had a clue - and actually told their shareholders that they did, perhaps their share price wouldn't look like the one below compared to Webjet.

Note I equally despise Webjet -but still think does a better job than Flight Centre, and has a much more forward view on what will happen:

 

[dajop]

At the end of the day this about technology and changes in the market place.

The Flight Centre business was built originally in a time where airlines needed travel agents to distribute their products. Now that is less so, as internet channels (both airline operated and TA operated) make it easier to distribute their products without store based agents like Flight Centre. I think from the SQ perspective they are dealing with the emergence of LCC's such as Jetstar and Air Asia whose default distribution strategy is the internet.

The situation Flight Centre faces is not uncommon - a parallel example of our time is the challenge faced by music retailers adapting to competition from internet based music distribution. And history has many such examples (typewriters/computers, passenger ships/airlines etc). Many travel agents have adapted, and are starting to provide value added services, replacing commissions with fees. Although I do realise for leisure travellers this can be problematic.

I do have respect for many travel agents, although my dealings with FC have been less than rosy. Their quotes always used to hide things in taxes. Since the occassion they provided me "price beat" quote on SQ in a particular booking class (which we confirmed at the time of the quote) then ticketed in a lower (non points earning) class I have not had much time for them (being a little savvy we picked this up and they were able to rectify prior to departure). But the whole thing reeked of lack of ethics, as does the variable ++'s that seem to be entirely random and bear no relation to the airlines (or other agents) actual +++.s. Maybe there are good individuals in some agencies, but as a whole I think there are better agencies out there than FC.

 

[drron]

The only thing I will miss about FC is the fact that when looking for a domestic fare I use them for comparison then go to the airline that is cheapest so as to save a couple of minutes.
Although the majority on this board are clued in or know how to get good advice the great majority of travellers although they maybe tech savvy tend to forget this when it comes to travel and a good percentage still use agencies such as FC.
There is also the retirement market and the great trip.It will be a few years yet before the majority of this market gives up TAs.
Also reading the posts here the majority of business travel seems to use corporate TAs and FC do have a presence here.
Then there are those of us who could book entirely using the internet but use TAs who do provide a service.I am one of those and the fees paid for themselves last year with the great BKK airport occupation,everything was sorted without any need for me to do anything.But this is a reason I would not use FC.

 

[docjames]

A good TA is worth their weight in Gold when all hell breaks loose as drron describes.

When we got stuck in CUN last September on our way to HAV, we had zero luck trying to re-connect flights.

Our TA managed to get aus confirmed seats on the next available flight, cheaper than what we could by over the counter which was to be a day later anyway. He did all this at what must have been very late at night back in MEL.

Also, he managed to get a refund out of the original carrier (Cubana) who are notorious for failing to refund even when it's their fault (let alone when a hurricane stops them flying - hardly their fault).

He also got a letter from the tour agent itemising the lost plans and cost, allowing us to submit to travel insurance.

I cant imagine having to do all this myself. :shock:

Oh, and despite moving to Brisbane, we still use the same TA whos in MEL (and has no office in Brisbane).


Do i need him boking MEL-BNE-MEL etc - no.

Complex itinery, ATW etc - absolutely.


/on topic/

FLight Centre are engaging in "business practice" and clearly arent happy with the deal with SQ. They've clearly decided it costs them less to take this action than proceed with the current arrangement. Time will tell how it works out, but I cant imagine SQ will suffer too much.

 

[Travel Guru]

A good TA is worth their weight in Gold when all hell breaks loose as drron describes.

When we got stuck in CUN last September on our way to HAV, we had zero luck trying to re-connect flights.

Our TA managed to get aus confirmed seats on the next available flight, cheaper than what we could by over the counter which was to be a day later anyway. He did all this at what must have been very late at night back in MEL.

Also, he managed to get a refund out of the original carrier (Cubana) who are notorious for failing to refund even when it's their fault (let alone when a hurricane stops them flying - hardly their fault).

He also got a letter from the tour agent itemising the lost plans and cost, allowing us to submit to travel insurance.

I cant imagine having to do all this myself. :shock:

Oh, and despite moving to Brisbane, we still use the same TA whos in MEL (and has no office in Brisbane).


Do i need him boking MEL-BNE-MEL etc - no.

Complex itinery, ATW etc - absolutely.

TA's are no different than Accountants, Lawyers, Plumbers, Electricians, Car Sales People, Bankers, and any other profession you can name, there are good ones and bad ones, it's always just a matter of using your nous, asking for referrals from those you trust, finding a good one and sticking with them wherever they go.

I've got clients in all but 2 states of Australia who deal with me not because i'm located right around the corner, but because they know that they can count on things being done right first time and they know that if the proverbial hits the fan then there will be someone available on the phone 24 hours a day to assist them.

For the earlier poster to suggest that 70% of TA's haven't got a clue clearly shows either a lack of real world experience, or that they didn't get their Low Fat Kosher meal on one flight 8 years ago and has decided their revenge shall be to forever bad mouth and hate TA's....build a bridge.....

Hell, if I stopped using a profession every time I had a bad experience with them, i'd be doing my own tax, writing my own legal documents, fixing my own blocked toilet, making my own coffee in the morning and flying my own plane from Brisbane to Sydney! :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Remember, what you focus on expands....

TG

 

[FL360]

If any TA can get me SFML on QF economy with a web price match I will book with a TA..