State border closures illegal under the highest law in the country?

[bigbadbyrnes]

Everything is arguable in law, doubly so in constitutional law. This is a matter for the high court.

But here's my opening argument;

Section 92 of the highest law in the country sets out "On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free. "

Per Cole vs Whitfield 1988 "The notions of absolutely free trade and commerce and absolutely free intercourse are quite distinct". Sec92 clearly sets out the law for interstate trade, but also 'intercourse'.

And on the matter of what intercourse means, per Gratwick v Johnson 1945 it's the ability "to pass to and fro among the States without burden, hindrance or restriction".

Border closures, (and arguably although less certainly isolation requirements), are therefore inconsistent with the highest law in the country and should be set aside.

No one is talking about it, any legal eagles here explain? There's no room on the news for this at the moment, but if people start to fed up with the restrictions, it's worth getting them tested in the high court.

edit:

I think this analysis will answer all your questions: States are shutting their borders to stop coronavirus. Is that actually allowed?

Short version: if there are good public health grounds (for example states of emergency), those laws are likely to be held valid.

Could be worth testing if an individual could be proven to be not a thread to public health, but that would be the exception. Thanks MEL_Traveller for sharing the article.

/thread

 

[jakeseven7]

Anyway back on topic....

Only a couple of hours before another part of Australia is restored...!

——-

South Australia shows the way in evidence-based reopening of borders


South Australia’s decision to re-open its borders to NSW from Thursday is a victory for clear, evidence-based policy in the sometimes emotional debate about the role state borders should play in controlling COVID-19.

Given the tremendous damage they cause to industries, such as tourism and families split between states, the borders should be reopened as soon as it is safe.

Some states, however, have adopted a much less transparent and evidence-based approach. They have either closed their borders indefinitely or set dubious criteria for reopening which some fear might never be met.

Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk says she wants to see 28 days without unknown-source transmission before opening up to NSW and she will not reconsider until next month. She insists she is relying on health advice but her ‘tough’ line might also be motivated by the looming state election.
WA closed its borders in April to all comers and has refused to lay out any timetable for re-opening despite a series of legal challenges. Tasmania says its borders will stay closed until December at least.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison would like states to switch away from closure of borders to entire states and move to selective bans on specific regions, which are judged by health experts to be high risk.

Premier Gladys Berejiklian has suggested she will follow this philosophy in her approach to Victoria.

NSW has shown that it is possible to suppress COVID with carefully targeted social distancing, efficient contract tracing and massive testing.

Other states should focus on doing the same.

South Australia shows the way in reopening borders for NSW

NSW has shown that it is possible to suppress COVID. Other states should focus on doing the same.

www.google.com.au

 

[DC3]

I'm in a high risk group. And older. And I understand the medical practitioners comment.

Please tell me more. It may clear up my confusion.

 

[jeza]

I don't have a subscription but a couple of headlines to articles in The West online hinting at possible easing of WA's border restrictions.

Travel bubbles on cards with border rethink next week

Xmas travel eyed as top cop hints at border shake-up

Police Commissioner Chris Dawson has signalled a major impending change to the criteria governing WA’s hard border, potentially opening the door to interstate travel before Christmas.

thewest.com.au

 

[jakeseven7]

I don't have a subscription but a couple of headlines to articles in The West online hinting at possible easing of WA's border restrictions.

Travel bubbles on cards with border rethink next week

Xmas travel eyed as top cop hints at border shake-up

Police Commissioner Chris Dawson has signalled a major impending change to the criteria governing WA’s hard border, potentially opening the door to interstate travel before Christmas.

thewest.com.au

Sentiment is shifting big time so this would be welcome news for people.

Also WA has an incredibly high unemployment rate and has been hit particularly hard economically despite being the one of the ‘most open’ states. It’s level with VIC and they are in stage 4 lockdown still.... pretty awful. This of course on top of all the tragic family stories we here, being split from loved ones.

It’s going to start biting even more soon and they are hopefully feeling more confident in their health systems ability to manage any blips of virus that pops up once the border restrictions are eased.

 

[p--and--t]

I don't have a subscription but a couple of headlines to articles in The West online hinting at possible easing of WA's border restrictions.

Travel bubbles on cards with border rethink next week

Xmas travel eyed as top cop hints at border shake-up

Police Commissioner Chris Dawson has signalled a major impending change to the criteria governing WA’s hard border, potentially opening the door to interstate travel before Christmas.

thewest.com.au

I think the steely resolve and."Purely acting on health advice" will melt to something else before Xmas. Trying to stop families catching up across state borders at Xmas will see any such Premier to the back bench in quick time.

 

[jakeseven7]

For any of our SA / NSW flyers, flights being added as the border is removed.

—-
Jetstar slashes thousands of flights to $59 as borders removed

In the past 24 hours, Qantas and Jetstar has seen huge demand on the Adelaide-Sydney route with more than 6500 seats sold collectively.

Jetstar slash thousands of flights to $59

Get your luggage ready, because Jetstar has announced it will slash 5000 fares from Sydney to Adelaide following the announcement South Australia will reopen its border with NSW from midnight.

www.news.com.au

 

[jakeseven7]

I think the steely resolve and."Purely acting on health advice" will melt to something else before Xmas. Trying to stop families catching up across state borders at Xmas will see any such Premier to the back bench in quick time.

Melbourne historically has stronger ties with Perth in terms of family connections etc and you can see this by the number of flights between the two cities (pre-covid) more than compared to Sydney so that will be a tricky one for them to manage.

However with Melbourne’s plummeting numbers who knows.... Christmas is still 3 months away...

But they definitely don’t have a leg to stand on for the rest of Australia.....

 

[drron]

What upsets me is that younger people especially those that are just starting out in their working life.
Why are they being sacrificed to protect me?
Morally wrong

This is a very disturbing vision coming from a medical practitioner.
I have no interest in the value you place on your life but object to you placing value on mine.
Your position presents as judgmental of a right to survive based some kind of a community economic comfort parameter.
Humans are , for the most part, caring creatures , at great community cost we keep our dysfunctional brethren
alive and comfortable and we should continue to do so.

It disturbs me that you have taken this comment out of context.As I said I am happy to look after my health and I don't want those starting out to be denied their chances.Those with no experience or who rely on part time jobs are the young.They won't get jobs.They will have much greater stresses put onto them and are at the age where suicide is most prevalent.

In no way was this putting a value on your life.It is my personal situation.I know from your posts you basically have taken responsibility for your health sio we are in the same boat.What value you place on your life is entirely your decision and nothing I said in that post implies anything else.In fact I have not placed a value on my life but stated that I am happy if it is up to me to look after my own health.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

What upsets me is that younger people especially those that are just starting out in their working life.
Why are they being sacrificed to protect me?
Morally wrong

This is a very disturbing vision coming from a medical practitioner.
I have no interest in the value you place on your life but object to you placing value on mine.
Your position presents as judgmental of a right to survive based some kind of a community economic comfort parameter.
Humans are , for the most part, caring creatures , at great community cost we keep our dysfunctional brethren
alive and comfortable and we should continue to do so.

Thankfully, from the Prime Minister down, we have governments that reflect the community attitude you describe, and are trying their best to protect us accordingly.

Moving the argument again.We were talking about Nursing homes so now you are talking retirement villages.
But you are the one complaining about the mortality rates of older persons and how much death we are willing to accept.So the way to limit the mortality is to protect the elderly.The price of that is limitations on their activities.

But tell me why do we close down schools when there haven't been major outbreaks in schools.The youngest man claimed to have died of Covid was aged 30.But he actually died of a drug overdose.
So again why do people from 20-40 have to suffer the same limitations as the elderly-just so you can be happy that everyone is treated the same?That is patently absurd.

So I am coming up to my 74th birthday so i am one in the more at risk group.Though I do have a genetic problem with excess iron levels.there have been reports that high iron levels are associated with milder disease.But I am happy to take care of myself.I am prepared to wear a mask where social distancing is impossible.I can choose the times when supermarkets etc are not as busy.
I am happy to go to restaurants here in Tassie and on the Sunshine Coast where there are no active cases of Covid.
What upsets me is that younger people especially those that are just starting out in their working life.Why are they being sacrificed to protect me?Morally wrong.

So I am sorry I just don't agree with your thoughts.Maybe you could find an international expert on pandemics who is still in favour of State border closures and lockdowns.

As I have said it is time to start living with this virus.

My understanding is that schools can spread covid. While it may not affect the young (asymptomatic), when their parents go to work, in places like aged care, they can start lethal clusters.

The young may be impacted, but it is temporary. Young people aren't without income. We have had recessions before, we come out of them. Society prospers again. Very different to economic-driven recessions, this is a health-driven recession. Rebound is estimated to be much quicker. No one is being 'sacrificed' in that young age group, it's a blip of 6 months, maybe a year, out of the 85+ years they will be here.

Now is not the time we *must* start living with the virus. It is a premature debate given that potential vaccines, treatments and preventions are possibly only a few months away. If they prove unsuccessful, that will be the time to start the discussion on alternatives.

I'm in a high risk group. And older. And I understand the medical practitioners comment.

As we discussed previously... that's your right to feel that way. My parents feel completely differently!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It disturbs me that you have taken this comment out of context.As I said I am happy to look after my health and I don't want those starting out to be denied their chances.Those with no experience or who rely on part time jobs are the young.They won't get jobs.They will have much greater stresses put onto them and are at the age where suicide is most prevalent.

In no way was this putting a value on your life.It is my personal situation.I know from your posts you basically have taken responsibility for your health sio we are in the same boat.What value you place on your life is entirely your decision and nothing I said in that post implies anything else.In fact I have not placed a value on my life but stated that I am happy if it is up to me to look after my own health.

You may have the ability to protect yourself. But society is broader than that. We deliberately put in place policies to protect the vulnerable, and those that can't look after themselves.

You may choose to only visit the supermarket in off-peak times. Someone else your age might have forgotten to buy bread that day and need to go to the shops in peak time,

Border closures, as one of a suite of measures, are potentially valuable in this context of managing risk.

(As a side note, there's a lot of talk about the mental health impacts of the virus. The same level of concern was not apparent in other major debates such as marriage equality, which particularly affected one of the most vulnerable sections of society. Why the difference?)

 

[p--and--t]

What upsets me is that younger people especially those that are just starting out in their working life.
Why are they being sacrificed to protect me?
Morally wrong

This is a very disturbing vision coming from a medical practitioner.
I have no interest in the value you place on your life but object to you placing value on mine.
Your position presents as judgmental of a right to survive based some kind of a community economic comfort parameter.
Humans are , for the most part, caring creatures , at great community cost we keep our dysfunctional brethren
alive and comfortable and we should continue to do so.

I don't have a problem with anyone (medico or not) making their own choices as to how they value their own life, as long as it doesn't spill over into deciding the value of another person's life. That is not for someone else to decide, medically trained or not.

 

[jakeseven7]

Medical experts determine COVID border closures were Australia’s biggest strategic mistake

Australia’s brutal border wars have dominated headlines as the coronavirus crises raged on, with the NSW and Queensland Premiers repeatedly locking horns over the controversial issue.

While restrictions have slowly started to ease in recent days as the nation’s virus case numbers continue to drop, there are still many limits on movement in place, with Ms Berejiklian arguing there was no medical reason for them to remain at all.

And it seems the nation’s leading virus experts agree.

Six academics and medical experts from the country’s top universities and health institutions told the Australian Financial Review this week there was no public health benefit to state border closures, with some labelling the policy “politically driven”.

Peter Collignon, a professor of infectious diseases at Australian National University’s Medical School, was one of them, and he told news.com.au the unofficial elimination strategy adopted by some states – and the border closures which arose as a result – were a “strategic mistake”.

He explained the border lockdowns weren’t “sustainable” in the medium to longer term as a safe and effective coronavirus vaccine was still at least a year away.

Redirect Notice

 

[jeza]

Sentiment is shifting big time so this would be welcome news for people.

Also WA has an incredibly high unemployment rate and has been hit particularly hard economically despite being the one of the ‘most open’ states. It’s level with VIC and they are in stage 4 lockdown still.... pretty awful. This of course on top of all the tragic family stories we here, being split from loved ones.

It’s going to start biting even more soon and they are hopefully feeling more confident in their health systems ability to manage any blips of virus that pops up once the border restrictions are eased.

Labour Force, Australia, September 2024

Headline estimates of employment, unemployment, underemployment, participation and hours worked from the monthly Labour Force Survey

www.abs.gov.au

So of the 5 largest states WA has the 2nd lowest unemployment rate, 2nd lowest under employment rate, highest participation rate & the highest percentage of population in employment. Granted it could be an aberration as it's only one months data but that is a big improvement for such a hard hit economy. Hopefully the ABS figures are on or pretty close to the mark & the trend continues!. If anything we are now running into labour shortages in quite a few areas.

 

[trevella]

potential vaccines, treatments and preventions are possibly only a few months away. If they prove unsuccessful, that will be the time to start the discussion on alternatives.

That argument is not sounding better even with extreme repetition.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I'm in a high risk group. And older. And I understand the medical practitioners comment.

I’m in neither group but am a medical practitioner and I don’t understand or agree.

 

[trevella]

I don't see why some people are allowed out to bars and restaurants, or to play sports, and those in aged care can't, and are limited to one visitor.

Maybe spend a little less time worrying about what others are allowed to do and a little more about what types of behavior it makes no sense whatsoever to prevent.

Your “err on the side of safety” strategy does nothing of the sort. And what will it take to trigger it next time around? Some businessman was seen coughing at an airport, so let’s just shut it all down just in case?

Bringing same-sex marriage into the argument should be offensive to anyone with a semblance of a brain.

 

[Pushka]

I’m in neither group but am a medical practitioner and I don’t understand or agree.

My medical family would agree with you but I don't always agree with them either. People like to make their own decisions sometimes with regards to medical issues and the medical advice might not always align with those wishes.

 

[Buzzard]

With the SA / NSW border now open thankfully I can return without iso.
Hopefully the border remains open during my absence.

 

[jakeseven7]

With the SA / NSW border now open thankfully I can return without iso.
Hopefully the border remains open during my absence.

Once these borders are open it is going to be highly highly unlikely they will close again, at least on a statewide basis. It is not sustainable unless it was an absolute emergency. We have track and trace systems that will work across a line drawn on a map, it is time to use them.

That is also why we need a national definition of a postcode area 'hot spot' to help have a framework for these decisions moving forward so people like you can make decisions with at least some visibility and understanding of the risk.

 

[jakeseven7]

These costs to the QLD tax payer will increase as the Federal Government removes the ADF from state border support roles.

---

Eye-watering costs of QLD border restriction regime revealed


Queensland taxpayers have been handed a $75 million bill to fund the state's public health response during the COVID-19 pandemic so far, increasing every day the border closure remains in place.

Auditor-General Brendan Worrall tabled an independent report into the state's pandemic spending and recession stimulus, which reveals the huge costs of patrolling the borders and associated hotel quarantine.

The Auditor-General's first report did not "assess the effectiveness or value for money of the government’s response measures", but outlined what had already been announced.

Eye-watering costs of border regime, quarantine and free hotel rooms

The Queensland government has outlined the cost to taxpayers so far as well as funding to combat COVID-19 over the next few years.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au