Taking Qantas to NCAT

[jpp42]

In relation to the economic cost of point 3, the difference between business and economy
I suspect Qantas may have already provided an economic cost for this issue. @papeto mentioned that Qantas asked for the refunded points to be return back to Qantas.
I understand that the principle here is that if Qantas is paying for the new economy fare then they need to have retained the original payment in the form of the points.

However, it seems to me that those points represent the difference between what was booked and the alternative of the economy airfare. These are in fact the cost of having to fly economy instead of business.
Yes, I'm making a pretty vague argument here, but I'm sure a good lawyer could finese it into something useful.

Has it been clarified in this thread exactly how many points moved in which direction? I agree that on a purely economic perspective, if @papeto was refunded all of his points for the non-flown J itinerary, it makes sense that he might need to repay points equivalent to an economy-class booking, in exchange for his costs for that booking to be reimbursed in cash. This would make him whole in relation to the economy-class itinerary that was actually flown, which he did get the benefit of (regardless of the delay matter).

 

[Vic]

Has it been clarified in this thread exactly how many points moved in which direction? I agree that on a purely economic perspective, if @papeto was refunded all of his points for the non-flown J itinerary, it makes sense that he might need to repay points equivalent to an economy-class booking, in exchange for his costs for that booking to be reimbursed in cash. This would make him whole in relation to the economy-class itinerary that was actually flown, which he did get the benefit of (regardless of the delay matter).

That's a great question. I don't know the answer. My thought process was based on the assumption of the following steps:

1. Qantas refunded the award points
2. Qantas then agreed to reimburse the economy airfare
3. On condition points were returned to qantas.

I assumed it was the entirety of the original points. But as you've mentioned, my assumption could be wrong, It might have just been enough points to cover economy.

 

[papeto]

Hi All no word from NCAT. Will probably hear next year. All the best for 2023! And thanks for all your support in the last year.

 

[love_the_life]

Hi All no word from NCAT. Will probably hear next year. All the best for 2023! And thanks for all your support in the last year.

Thanks for the update. Have a great festive season and hope 2023 brings the desired outcome.

 

[jackra]

I have classic reward booking with mixed Qantas and partner airline and loss of partner airline seats due to Qantas error. The flight is not due until Dec and of course nothing Qantas can do when I call CS but they repeatedly told me they are still waiting for partner airline to respond, despite we established there had been no more reward seats since Aug when they lost my seats.

I am wondering if I refund classic award tickets now and buy paid seats 1.5 month before the trip date, would NCAT think I have not given Qantas enough chance to do something?

Funny, I just had this exact same experience. Had booked 2 tickets prior to flying through qantas points, they did not "validate the ticket" or whatever. Ticket got split, called qantas and they couldn't get us another reward seat, had to pay out of pocket in Economy. Not to mention international roaming fees
Going to approach them for compensation.

 

[papeto]

We got feedback from NCAT. They have ruled that it is a federal jurisdiction matter and therefore they can’t rule on it. In terms of the NCAT legislation we can take it to the local court, so just working through that atm. A real pity as we had hoped we could put it behind us.

 

[SydneySwan]

We got feedback from NCAT. They have ruled that it is a federal jurisdiction matter and therefore they can’t rule on it. In terms of the NCAT legislation we can take it to the local court, so just working through that atm. A real pity as we had hoped we could put it behind us.

Very disappointing outcome.

 

[Anna]

QF had made you a settlement offer hadn't they? Is it still open?

 

[love_the_life]

QF had made you a settlement offer hadn't they? Is it still open?

Had they? I thought it was all pending but could well be wrong on that.

 

[jpp42]

QF had made you a settlement offer hadn't they? Is it still open?

Why would they keep it open after a ruling in their favour?

We got feedback from NCAT. They have ruled that it is a federal jurisdiction matter and therefore they can’t rule on it.

Can you request written reasons? Although it may not be favourable to those trying to use NCAT, at least it would clarify the matter (and perhaps help bolster the efforts of consumer advocates in getting better legislation around airline delays in general?).

 

[Anna]

Why would they keep it open after a ruling in their favour?

Instead of facing action in court next.

 

[papeto]

Hi All, thanks for all the messages of support. One member has even offered to do a fund raiser for me for legal costs! To clarify a few questions that have come up.

When we had our NCAT tribunal meeting ( 14 Nov) , the member parked the jurisdiction issue and focused on the case. When she did a review on the papers later (22 Dec) on she asssed the federal jurisdiction issue.

The reasons given for the verdict ( provided 30 Dec) is that Qantas claimed the claim arose from delay. ( Our view was it arose from contract breach, not delay). Delay falls wthin the Montreal Convention (Article 19). The Montreal Convention falls under Federal Jurisdiction through the CACL Act . “As the CACL Act is federal legislation, a matter which invokes a defence under the CACL Act and the Convention may only be brought in either a Federal Court or a state court vested with appropriate federal jurisdiction”.

It was enough for Qantas to raise it as a defence to take it out of NCAT. NCAT decided they couldn’t hear it as Qantas defence was based on federal jurisdiction. They therefore declined to hear the case as they did not have jurisdiction. It doesn’t mean I lost my case, just that I will have to take it to a local court. I was granted leave to take it to a local court Per Part 3A of the NCAT act, which provides certain benefits that I have mentioned before.

I have started talking to lawyers, but am also looking to discuss reaching settlement with Qantas. I have to balance additional legal costs with securing a better outcome.

It would ge a real pity to let Qantas off the hook on this one as it deals with so many issues AFF members have struggled with - booking with points, compensation when a carrier leaves you stranded, booked on business but flying economy to name a few.

If any members are practising lawyers in NSW and are prepared to help, please let me know.

I’ll keep you updated as to how things progress. Keep safe and keep flying

 

[drron]

Funny, I just had this exact same experience. Had booked 2 tickets prior to flying through qantas points, they did not "validate the ticket" or whatever. Ticket got split, called qantas and they couldn't get us another reward seat, had to pay out of pocket in Economy. Not to mention international roaming fees
Going to approach them for compensation.

Welcome to AFF @jackra .
Stick around It can be a great source of information here. Some even positive!

 

[Anna]

I had to look it up but I believe the CACL Act is the Civil Aviation (Carriers' Liability) Act 1959 (Cth).

 

[jackra]

Welcome to AFF @jackra .
Stick around It can be a great source of information here. Some even positive!

thanks mate, i think i'll have to make my own thread soon, they're being horrible

 

[SydneySwan]

thanks mate, i think i'll have to make my own thread soon, they're being horrible

Don't take it personally. This is fast becoming standard Qantas behaviour to its customers.