The continual decline of spoken English in Australia

[Max Samuels]

Yesterday as I was waiting outside Parliament station in Melbourne (so, yes, kind of travel related), which was closed because all trains had stopped because of a truck accident earlier in the afternoon, I was struck at just how terrible station announcements had become. Usually they are automated, a lovely smooth female voice, every word clear and precise. However in instances such as this they have to get actual people to speak.

There were perhaps a few 100 of us waiting at the barrier gates, and some guy was talking over the PA explaining what had happened, in an accent so thick that it was pretty much incomprehensible. Many of us just looked at each other and rolled our eyes, some people were really frustrated and saying things like "do you understand any thing he is saying"????

Which got me to thinking... are we frogs in a pot of slowly heating water? And is it now boiling? And it is not just on trains.

Over the years, I have sat back and watched in horror/amusement/disappointment at how the standard of English has just continued to fall. Even at work! I read documents written in such poor English that I have to send back to the author. I sit in meetings where I only understand 50% of what is being said. And the best one of all? Conference calls with offshore teams where pretty much nothing is understood. This happens mainly in IT of course, where a decade plus of outsourcing means we have destroyed the industry for young Australians, for even the most basic jobs in testing. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes - we just sit here and pretend nothing is going on!!

When I worked at a big bank, the testing team was so bad - the English level of the testing team sooooooooooooo terrible - that the business eventually stopped turning up to meetings because they were so frustrated, and the testing team would have a policy of "if you don't turn up it means you have approved it". So basically we just ended up with rubbish that didn't work.

I think that a good chunk of Ubers that I take don't understand me..... they just nod. Especially the ones that are using the Chinese language version of the Uber app.

Now, before anyone starts a racism rant, I just want to say this: I don't care where you come from. I don't care how you got here (as long as it is legal). But if you are to preform a job for me/with me, then I expect you to speak English. If you are in a customer service role for the VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT, I should not have to dumb down my level of language so you can understand me. I should not have to resort to hand signals and grunts to get the message through. If you can't speak English well enough, go study it, then come back. Is that too much to demand?

I have seen posts on this forum where people are dissatisfied with the level of English on a foreign airline - well how about the level of English in our own backyards!

 

[juddles]

Can't reply just now - but will revert to you later

 

[Max Samuels]

Can't reply just now - but will revert to you later

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

REVERT.

W.T.F.

That has made my day!

Now, I am just going to do the needful.

 

[sjk]

WTF indeed.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Can't reply just now - but will revert to you later

As has been pointed out in another thread, this is actually an example of where "proper english" - frequently used by professionals (especially lawyers) - is unfamiliar to less well educated native speakers and is therefore being misclassifed as a peculiarity of speakers of english as a second language.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Yesterday as I was waiting outside Parliament station in Melbourne (so, yes, kind of travel related), which was closed because all trains had stopped because of a truck accident earlier in the afternoon, I was struck at just how terrible station announcements had become. Usually they are automated, a lovely smooth female voice, every word clear and precise. However in instances such as this they have to get actual people to speak.

There were perhaps a few 100 of us waiting at the barrier gates, and some guy was talking over the PA explaining what had happened, in an accent so thick that it was pretty much incomprehensible. Many of us just looked at each other and rolled our eyes, some people were really frustrated and saying things like "do you understand any thing he is saying"????

Which got me to thinking... are we frogs in a pot of slowly heating water? And is it now boiling? And it is not just on trains.

Over the years, I have sat back and watched in horror/amusement/disappointment at how the standard of English has just continued to fall. Even at work! I read documents written in such poor English that I have to send back to the author. I sit in meetings where I only understand 50% of what is being said. And the best one of all? Conference calls with offshore teams where pretty much nothing is understood. This happens mainly in IT of course, where a decade plus of outsourcing means we have destroyed the industry for young Australians, for even the most basic jobs in testing. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes - we just sit here and pretend nothing is going on!!

When I worked at a big bank, the testing team was so bad - the English level of the testing team sooooooooooooo terrible - that the business eventually stopped turning up to meetings because they were so frustrated, and the testing team would have a policy of "if you don't turn up it means you have approved it". So basically we just ended up with rubbish that didn't work.

I think that a good chunk of Ubers that I take don't understand me..... they just nod. Especially the ones that are using the Chinese language version of the Uber app.

Now, before anyone starts a racism rant, I just want to say this: I don't care where you come from. I don't care how you got here (as long as it is legal). But if you are to preform a job for me/with me, then I expect you to speak English. If you are in a customer service role for the VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT, I should not have to dumb down my level of language so you can understand me. I should not have to resort to hand signals and grunts to get the message through. If you can't speak English well enough, go study it, then come back. Is that too much to demand?

I have seen posts on this forum where people are dissatisfied with the level of English on a foreign airline - well how about the level of English in our own backyards!

I am not suggesting you are being racist or that you are motivated by racism however I think raising this topic in this way inevitably leads to racism.
I agree that the standard of spoken English is declining, however I wouldn't place the blame only on those for whom English is a second language.
In my view the standard of spoken - and written - English of most native born Australians is pretty poor.
Perhaps people who are learning English by immersion in Australia are not being helped by copying people who can hardly speak their own first language.

 

[drron]

This thread is too divisive-or soon will be so I am going to ignore it.

 

[Max Samuels]

Perhaps people who are learning English by immersion in Australia are not being helped by copying people who can hardly speak their own first language.

That is also a very good point.

There are still some industries and jobs where native-level Engrish seems to be a must.... take QF for example? I have never heard a CSM speak in anything but clear, correct English. Very "easy on the ear", as it were.

QF have many faults but English isn't one of them!

 

[Max Samuels]

This thread is too divisive-or soon will be so I am going to ignore it.

Oh no!!! But that is just the problem with EVERYTHING these days.
Nothing hard is ever solved because no one is game enough to talk about it.

As I said.... frogs in a pot....

Let's just hope this pot has lie-flat beds and Champers

 

[esseeeayeenn]

That is also a very good point.

There are still some industries and jobs where native-level Engrish seems to be a must.... take QF for example? I have never heard a CSM speak in anything but clear, correct English. Very "easy on the ear", as it were.

QF have many faults but English isn't one of them!

No - although they seem to make little or no effort to accomodate other languages as an international airline.
For example on flights to and from Nouméa - a French overseas territory - they make no effort to roster French-speaking cabin crew.
This may be because the short flights on B738s seem to be staffed by domestic, not international, cabin crew.
But of course that is their decision as well.

 

[Max Samuels]

As has been pointed out in another thread, this is actually an example of where "proper english" - frequently used by professionals (especially lawyers) - is unfamiliar to less well educated native speakers and is therefore being misclassifed as a peculiarity of speakers of english as a second language.

I think in the case of "revert", in the Oxford dictionary, it states the use-case mentioned by juddles as being "Indian English". We are not in India.

Just like when I work with the Port Authority of New York, they often refer to tollways as "turnpikes" - which is archaic English. But it is the word they choose to use. So I also use "turnpike" when speaking with them, in their country. I would have thought that by now, many people that use "revert" would have learned that we don't use it here.

Anyway, my point was not about "revert" - it was a funny little aside, however

My point was about not being able to understand at all.

 

[Max Samuels]

No - although they seem to make little or no effort to accomodate other languages as an international airline.
For example on flights to and from Nouméa - a French overseas territory - they make no effort to roster French-speaking cabin crew.
This may be because the short flights on B738s seem to be staffed by domestic, not international, cabin crew.
But of course that is their decision as well.

I know right???????

 

[Dr Ralph]

frequently used by professionals (especially lawyers)

Just not true. 28 yrs as a legal practitioner, seen it used twice.

And as I have previously pointed out it's grammatically incorrect.

If I saw it used my assumption would be that English was not the person's first language.

 

[Max Samuels]

I am not suggesting you are being racist or that you are motivated by racism however I think raising this topic in this way inevitably leads to racism.

And that is the real issue when we talk about these things. For some bizarre reason, we hold ourselves and English to a different standard than anyone else seems to.

Example: I lived/worked in Japan for years. Nearly a decade. By most measures, I am considered extremely proficient for a non-native. Have all the certificates to prove it. Will I ever be as good as a native? No. Does it bother me? No. Have I been turned away from some Japanese-speaking jobs because I wasn't good enough? Yes. Did I scream "racist"? No. I either went away and studied more and then came back, or took a job where my ability was adequate.

Would I be a taxi driver in Japan? No. Why? I would not feel confident enough if something went really wrong like a car crash etc where there would be police etc involved. And I don't know the city well enough to drive the most appropriate routes.

Is my Japanese better than the English of many of the Uber drivers I have experienced in Australia? Yes. Do I think they would handle a serious event well? No. Do they know the roads well? Definitely no.

 

[get me outta here]

Not so divisive so far, the tedious people continually bang a drum have mostly not appeared as yet.

This thread is too divisive-or soon will be so I am going to ignore it.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Just not true. 28 yrs as a legal practitioner, seen it used twice.

And as I have previously pointed out its grammatically incorrect.

I'm not going to be dragged into a "who was admitted first" argument but "I will revert to you" is certainly widely used in legal practice in WA.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Not so divisive so far, the tedious people continually bang a drum have mostly not appeared as yet.

I like the 'mostly".

 

[zenyattamondatta]

By most measures, I am considered extremely proficient for a non-native. Have all the certificates to prove it.

As someone responsible for hiring people who claim Japanese proficiency, I'm going to guess that you mean JLPT N1 here, since there is no other widely recognized standard. That basically, at best, puts you on a rough par with an uneducated Japanese teenager, and is a good example of how little certificates can be worth in practice.

So what would you propose be done in English? Do people just have to pass some sort of "Max Samuels Sniff Test"? Should we start deporting people who have English as their native language but waste it yabbering about all sorts of irrelevancies?

 

[straitman]

Sorry Max Samuels but I totally disagree with your premise.

I transited through Flinders St and/or the station that was under the Gas & Fuel buildings (forgotten the name) twice a day for my last four years at secondary school. In four years I never understood the announcements as they were totally incomprehensible due to the very heavy Greek/Italian accents.

I recently complimented an announcer at Flinders St for how clear and precise his message was and how much better they are these days than when I went to school. I mentioned the past announcements and he laughed and said ALL the announcers are now required to be clear with their message though there was one person still there from the old days and retiring shortly.

You obviously got that one.

ie in summary the announcements have actually improved immeasurably over the last 50 years.

 

[Max Samuels]

Should we start deporting people who have English as their native language but waste it yabbering about all sorts of irrelevancies?

Nobody said anything about deporting. Just not in roles where it is part of the job to speak and be understood.
I wonder, how many non-native Japanese speakers have you placed in roles at JR stations? Making announcements to passengers about train delays etc? I'd guess zero?

Actually, your input/comment is quite timely. Even Japanese people are beginning to complain/notice about the number of non-Japanese speaking workers that are popping up in restaurants and small hotels in Japan....