The continual decline of spoken English in Australia

[Max Samuels]

In four years I never understood the announcements as they were totally incomprehensible due to the very heavy Greek/Italian accents.

Well that is exactly my point???

Maybe different accents now, but still incomprehensible

 

[Max Samuels]

I'm not going to be dragged into a "who was admitted first" argument but "I will revert to you" is certainly widely used in legal practice in WA.

Pacfically in WA? i would think legal Engrish would be standard, irregardless of state......
(note: deliberate misuse of language on my part)

 

[dajop]

It doesn't have to be foreign accents either. I remember 25 years, when I lived in Sydney near the CBD, and worked out towards Parramatta, getting on the train one day, I was shocked to learn I was on a train to Paris. The person announcing had a really Strayan accent and the announcement went like this .... "this trains going to Paris, firs stop Straveal, then Paramaa, Wesmead, Sevn Ills, Blackturn and all stops to Paris. "

 

[Max Samuels]

It doesn't have to be foreign accents either. I remember 25 years, when I lived in Sydney near the CBD, and worked out towards Parramatta, getting on the train one day, I was shocked to learn I was on a train to Paris. The person announcing had a really Strayan accent and the announcement went like this .... "this trains going to Paris, firs stop Straveal, then Paramaa, Wesmead, Sevn Ills, Blackturn and all stops to Paris. "

Yes!!! Sydney, just before the Olympics, had the WORST announcements ever. Now they have Gretel Keleen doing it (she is good though).

 

[straitman]

Well that is exactly my point???

Maybe different accents now, but still incomprehensible

Which part of my post didn't you read as you haven't responded to what I posted?

The announcements are now 'normally' all very clear. In the last few years I have not heard an incomprehensible announcement.

 

[Max Samuels]

But to think there is not a standard of English for communication is just cray cray.
TV presenters, radio hosts (except for 774 in Melbourne - OMG), they typically are hired specifically because they speak clearly and well. I think it is even called Broadcast English?

I'm not saying that everyone needs to sound like Walter Cronkite (amazing voice if you don't know who he was), I am just saying that when I get a train, or a cab, or have to meet with a colleague at work, that his or her English is of such a standard that I can understand it without needing a roseatta stone

Even in other countries this is the case (for their language).... so why not here?

 

[straitman]

Even in other countries this is the case (for their language).... so why not here?

... and I am saying they are! (mostly)

 

[dajop]

Also, Australian accents aren't always the easiest to understand either for foreigners. Having worked in Asia for 10+ years, I have developed an ear for different accents and phrases. But often I have to translate Australian English (particularly for those from rural areas north of the Murray, less so those based in cities) so people on the rest of the call (from all over Asia-Pacific) can understand. I've also had difficulty understanding and being understood in some parts of the US. It is what is. When in Rome etc...

Less concerned about uber/taxi drivers, after all, it is sh#@t lowly paid work, and a stepping stone. Who else is going to do it?

By and large this is the joy of the English language - a very forgiving language that usually you can understand what someone who speaks very little, very poor English is getting at. They don't have to have words, pronunciation or grammar exactly correct to understand what they're saying. Many other languages are not so forgiving, and perhaps one of the reasons (apart from the dominance of Britain and then America) that it is so widely used.

 

[Max Samuels]

Which part of my post didn't you read as you haven't responded to what I posted?

The announcements are now 'normally' all very clear. In the last few years I have not heard an incomprehensible announcement.

Sorry - your post agreed with mine - except you said it had improved (which it probably has), but I said it was still a problem (at least yesterday).

We are talking about the same thing. Maybe the one last person works at Parliament Station!

 

[zenyattamondatta]

Less concerned about uber/taxi drivers, after all, it is sh#@t lowly paid work, and a stepping stone. Who else is going to do it?

And that's Japan's problem as well. The choice in many cases isn't between differing levels of language competence, it's between getting the job done or not.

 

[Max Samuels]

Less concerned about uber/taxi drivers, after all, it is sh#@t lowly paid work, and a stepping stone. Who else is going to do it?

Well that is the whole point! If we are not concerned, then the issue isn't addressed, and it just snowballs.
If it was a requirement to speak good English, to do these jobs, then the standard would be maintained. It used to just be a given that people could speak English (in a country whose only language is English), and now it seems to be optional.

On another point, did you see yesterday the RBA wants to aim for 100% employment? What does that actually mean? Apparently it is different to zero unemployment? Anyway - there is your answer to the uber driver question!

 

[zenyattamondatta]

On another point, did you see yesterday the RBA wants to aim for 100% employment? What does that actually mean? Apparently it is different to zero unemployment? Anyway - there is your answer to the uber driver question!

Once again, your attention to detail appears to be lacking.

It has incorporated "full employment" into its forward guidance, which is an entirely different concept.

There's obviously more to language than just being a native speaker.

 

[Max Samuels]

Maybe better English could have avoided this little disaster....

Gladys Liu and Josh Frydenberg admit Chinese election signs instructed 'right way' to vote

Liberal MP and treasurer agree the translation says ‘correct way to vote’ but deny signs were unlawful or misleading

www.theguardian.com

 

[dajop]

Well that is the whole point! If we are not concerned, then the issue isn't addressed, and it just snowballs.

I would say that horse bolted decades ago. If we want high level English proficiency in Uber/taxi drivers, we are going to have to start paying a lot more for the privilege. People who have acquired such standards get better paying jobs elsewhere. My main concern with Uber drivers is driving proficiency!!!

 

[Max Samuels]

My main concern with Uber drivers is driving proficiency!!!

LOL. If you even have the "correct" driver - apparently drivers swapping with other peoples because passengers don't check is a huge issue. Not only is it dodgy, but DANGEROUS. People without licenses driving passengers around. Pretty outrageous. But I guess we are all frogs in that pot too!!

Funny anecdote.... a few years back (maybe 10) while waiting for a cab at SYD, the RTA decided to do a spot check on the taxis that were waiting in the queue.... you should of seen it. Like rats fleeing a sinking ship, drivers were getting out of the cabs and running. Most bizarre thing I have ever seen.

 

[straitman]

Sorry - your post agreed with mine - except you said it had improved (which it probably has), but I said it was still a problem (at least yesterday).

We are talking about the same thing. Maybe the one last person works at Parliament Station!

Max. Several people have now queried your responses to their posts. Please go back and read what people are saying rather than what you think and want them to say.

My post was diametrically opposite yours and did not agree at all. I did say improved but also added immeasurably meaning that the odd bad announcement is the exception and that most of the time they are clear and precise. ie the bad are less than 1% and there is not an issue.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

The best train announcements are on the metro in Paris where every stop is announced twice, but in a slightly different way each time.
I used to sit there trying to perfect the exact intonation and emphasis of each announcement.
But whenever I was on the RER B to or from CDG there would be an Australian with a map telling their family to get off at: "chat-urr-lette-layz-halls".
At which point I would revert to "Désolé, mais je ne parle pas anglais!".

 

[Hvr]

If you are in a customer service role for the VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT,

Actually the public transport system was privatised in the 1990s by the Kennett government.

Who we are

Who we are

www.metrotrains.com.au

Metro, or Metro Trains Melbourne, is a consortium of rail and construction businesses, all of which have unrivalled credentials. The Metro team draws on the strengths and experience of three leading rail industry organisations: Hong Kong’s MTR Corporation, Australia’s John Holland Group and UGL Rail, a division of United Group Limited.

 

[Max Samuels]

Sorry Max Samuels but I totally disagree with your premise.

That's fine - free world.

I transited through Flinders St and/or the station that was under the Gas & Fuel buildings (forgotten the name) twice a day for my last four years at secondary school. In four years I never understood the announcements as they were totally incomprehensible due to the very heavy Greek/Italian accents.

"incomprehensible due to the very heavy Greek/Italian accents" -that wasn't my experience but I believe you as you were there and I wasn't. I am accepting your anecdote at face value and as true.

I recently complimented an announcer at Flinders St for how clear and precise his message was and how much better they are these days than when I went to school. I mentioned the past announcements and he laughed and said ALL the announcers are now required to be clear with their message though there was one person still there from the old days and retiring shortly.

Great. I can't remember having a problem with Flinders St station.

ie in summary the announcements have actually improved immeasurably over the last 50 years.

Quite possibly. Probably more due to the fact that it is mostly a machine and not a person these days?

But my comment was about Parliament Station. And was about yesterday. And it did happen.
And then the bulk of my commentary was not about trains but about the workplace and life in general.

I suppose the counter discussion would be "the continual improvement of spoken English in Australia", to which nobody would agree?

Have I addressed all of your points?

 

[Isochronous]

As has been pointed out in another thread, this is actually an example of where "proper english" - frequently used by professionals (especially lawyers) - is unfamiliar to less well educated native speakers and is therefore being misclassifed as a peculiarity of speakers of english as a second language.

Agreed - we need not traverse covered ground again!

I am not suggesting you are being racist or that you are motivated by racism however I think raising this topic in this way inevitably leads to racism.
I agree that the standard of spoken English is declining, however I wouldn't place the blame only on those for whom English is a second language.
In my view the standard of spoken - and written - English of most native born Australians is pretty poor.
Perhaps people who are learning English by immersion in Australia are not being helped by copying people who can hardly speak their own first language.

100% agreed!

No - although they seem to make little or no effort to accomodate other languages as an international airline.
For example on flights to and from Nouméa - a French overseas territory - they make no effort to roster French-speaking cabin crew.
This may be because the short flights on B738s seem to be staffed by domestic, not international, cabin crew.
But of course that is their decision as well.

I don't think QF have many cabin crew who are proficient in multiple languages; it's not like CX, for example, where it is mandatory for every crew member to be fluent in English plus 1 Asian language. An inevitable function of being an Australian airline since, as a general rule, Australia does not do a great job in terms of teaching foreign languages to a high standard. I think that is largely a function of the fact that there isn't an obvious second language that should be generally taught in the same way that in the US they teach Spanish, Canadians teach French, and the UK teaches French or German.

I think in the case of "revert", in the Oxford dictionary, it states the use-case mentioned by juddles as being "Indian English". We are not in India.

Just like when I work with the Port Authority of New York, they often refer to tollways as "turnpikes" - which is archaic English. But it is the word they choose to use. So I also use "turnpike" when speaking with them, in their country. I would have thought that by now, many people that use "revert" would have learned that we don't use it here.

Anyway, my point was not about "revert" - it was a funny little aside, however

My point was about not being able to understand at all.

"Revert" is not Indian English. It is simply formal English, commonly used in professional communication in the UK and the rest of the Commonwealth, including in Australia.

But to think there is not a standard of English for communication is just cray cray.
TV presenters, radio hosts (except for 774 in Melbourne - OMG), they typically are hired specifically because they speak clearly and well. I think it is even called Broadcast English?

I'm not saying that everyone needs to sound like Walter Cronkite (amazing voice if you don't know who he was), I am just saying that when I get a train, or a cab, or have to meet with a colleague at work, that his or her English is of such a standard that I can understand it without needing a roseatta stone

Even in other countries this is the case (for their language).... so why not here?

The ABC ceased maintaining high standards of broadcast English in the 70s.

Otherwise I agree with the general premise of the thread, but the largest problem is with the shocking standard of teaching in Australian schools. The other source of the problem is universities diluting admission standards so far because (1) equalidee ooh everyone should have a degree and (2) opening the floodgates to virtually anyone who wants to enter as an international student to take the money without any regard for the impact on prestige and academic standards in ensuring that underqualified candidates pass.