The Dark side of Japan Tourism.

[ketsuzei]

I’m sorry but a fractured clavicle is not a 2 month injury.

I obviously wouldn't have a clue, but my point here is solely that it's a form of systemic shorthand in Japan to describe an injury in terms of the envisaged recovery time, that's what they went with here, and that's how the range of the penalty would have been determined. All completely standard and routine.

It was obviously an unfortunate and unpleasant experience with some unusual complicating factors. My sympathies on that front.

But I do find much of the commentary in this thread rather odious. Some posters have simply taken the opportunity to roll out existing prejudices, including a couple of hyperbolically unhinged references to the Second World War.

- Foreigners are treated differently. (I know, because I have a friend near Nagano.)
- Oh, locals would be treated like that too? Then foreigners *should* be treated differently. Why don't they do things like this, this, and this rather than that, that, and that?
- Why are things so different to Australia in a country that is not Australia?

Sounds like there were a couple of good eggs and a couple of bad eggs. Doesn't sound like it needs to be escalated into a major kerfuffle about "Japan" as a whole and its attitudes to human rights. Maybe not everything happened in as timely a fashion as it could have, but there are extenuating circumstances.

Some practices in some countries don't always look great under certain conditions. This was one such instance. I've seen many others, including (no kidding) in Australia.

Japan needs to be approached as a whole package. There's something disingenuous and insidious about (for example) liking the safety, conservatism, and general respect for traditions while wanting to tweak certain aspects of how that is all managed simply because you think you have a better model.

Try flipping things around. Imagine you're a policeman in an understaffed and underfunded regional town, this comes across your desk, and by law you have only very limited options for how you can handle things, and limited resources.

And there will inevitably be communication problems caused by language. Not sure what the obvious way around that is in a country where they speak Japanese.

It was an accident. Thankfully you both got home safely, and the other party will also live to make further mistakes.

 

[Quickstatus]

Besides I was told by a member of the first Judge’s staff that the usual fine in this situation was 100-150000 yen.

Sounds to me that guilt was all predetermined....

 

[tdimdad]

What a harrowing turn of events to you both, drron & mrsdrron! I'm really sorry you had to go through this and wish you will recover well from all the stress and trauma this surely caused!

A big thank you for documenting and sharing your experience here for us. Perhaps it was after quite a journey on whether or not to share and I'm grateful that you trusted us with this. The story serves as a sharp reminder to us on how things can suddenly go south despite however experienced you might be as a traveller and in a country, and also that not every country always wear silk gloves in their justice system.

Hopefully you can recover your obvious love and appreciation of Japan and revisit on a later day again.

 

[Quickstatus]

It was obviously an unfortunate and unpleasant experience with some unusual complicating factors.

What complicating factors are you referring to?

Foreigners are treated differently. (I know, because I have a friend near Nagano.)

I never said I know. But my friend in Nagano who has been there many years running a lodge who tells me the stories knows.

Why are things so different to Australia in a country that is not Australia?

No ne said it should be the same, or that we should be surprised that it is different. However the point is that many travellers to Japan are unaware of this part of Japan.

Sounds like there were a couple of good eggs and a couple of bad eggs

I think it is not just about a couple of bad eggs. My fairly basic research to date reveals that the problem appears to be systemic and not only tolerated but appears to be their standard.

I've seen many others, including (no kidding) in Australia.

I'm sure you are right. However this is a perspective of an traveller to Japan not a local's perspective of his own country of residence

while wanting to tweak certain aspects of how that is all managed simply because you think you have a better model.

Yes there is. Japan itself is a signatory to that model and it is in the Constitution, but does not seem to be a signatory in reality.

Imagine you're a policeman in an understaffed and underfunded regional town, this comes across your desk, and by law you have only very limited options for how you can handle things, and limited resources.

They seemed to spend a lot of resources and time in their prosecution. Note the comment about the number of guards each time @drron was moved.
Basically it was akin to maximum security. The police should do what they are supposed to do. But a proper justice system should have the power to limit the police and prosecution - not in this case.

Doesn't sound like it needs to be escalated into a major kerfuffle about "Japan" as a whole and its attitudes to human rights

Um, actually it does, and others have as well, If you would please read the links I have provided in my comments above.

Some practices in some countries don't always look great under certain conditions. This was one such instance. I've seen many others, including (no kidding) in Australia.

That is true, no one said that any country is perfect. I even said it is not just isolated to japan. However this was not just one instance. It appears to not be abnormal or a one off. Please see the Embassy letter posted above which suggests that it is actually quite normal.

Japan needs to be approached as a whole package

Isn't that the point of the thread : " The Dark side of japan tourism?" - the whole package - in other words warts and all?
Cherry Blossoms, Ryokans and the criminal justice system?

And there will inevitably be communication problems caused by language. Not sure what the obvious way around that is in a country where they speak Japanese.

Of course. But an fair intepreter solves those problems. It could even be an intepreter over the phone.

It was an accident.

It is in the eyes of everyone who reads this thread. However, it was not in the eyes of the Japanese criminal justice system. How can jail for up to 23 days, seemingly arbitrary jail rules, repeated interrogation and the rest be the consequence of an accident?


Just to be clear. I have no issue with the Japanese people. It the system that is the problem.

 

[GoldenTouchdown]

I really sympathise with OP that went through this ordeal, which the local authorities have really made a mountain over a molehill.

It's probably given us all a reality check about how different legal systems work worldwide and how they're not as universal as most, even in countries like Japan which seem to be hailed as the model place and society, whereas others get constantly unfairly vilified and approached fearfully on this forum for no good reason.

 

[Quickstatus]

pain medication

I know from personal experience that opiates are not given for fractured tibia in Japan - just paracetamol. A # clavicle would be even less.

It is not a complaint - we use too much opiates here in Australia.

local authorities have really made a mountain over a molehill.

Yes but I suspect it is not from the Japanese perspective.

 

[drron]

And I have no problem with the Japanese people but this system of justice for car accidents is certainly something I really do believe needs change. And I am not alone. I have posted the link to the US Stste department and theie view of Human rights in Japan. And they specifically mention detention.
I also believe a Japanese person who is detained after a MVA also is having their Human Rights impinged.
As I also said I have a neice who is a Human Rights Lawyer and worked in the UN for several years and it is felt there that human rights in Japan should be enforced.
Also did you read the letter from the lawyer from the Japanese Bar Association?
After 23 days in Detention you will be sent to trial or released unless you do not hold Resident status in Japan then procedures for forced repatriation will be initiated.
that means at least 7 days in Immigration detention. And if you read the US State department paper that has at times been up to a year. Plus you must pay for your deportation.
Tell me how many foreign visitors to Australiaa have been deported after having a minor traffic accident.

And don't worry about the Japanese culture being under threat from foreigners. A significant number of Young Japanese citizens are already doing that. Based on ~ 100 visits to Japan since 1984.

 

[mrs.dr.ron]

I must admit I shed a tear for you and Mrs Dr Ron when you finally got to see each other in that room, after all that time of worrying about each other and not knowing how each of you were coping. The relief must have been enormous.

Actually it wasn't too bad ! Ron looked OK, our son had told me " for heavens sake dont burst into tears when you see dad or else " so I was psyched up to behave so things went as well as could be, I had the two lawyers with me and it was only a brief meeting. And Ron was sitting behind a glass wall, so there was no contact.

 

[aspro2]

I'm so glad that you're out of this horrendous situation. I know a diplomat who was posted to Japan and has previously described to me many of the workings of the so-called justice system. I'm sorry you had to experience it. I know many young travellers who, over and above the youthful bravado and nonchalance, never get travel insurance and can't imagine any "difficulty" that might arise.

If you can face it, I hope someone picks up your story for greater profile so that people can perhaps become more aware of the unpredictable risks when travelling.

 

[Brissy1]

Outrageous treatment of you Dr. My sympathies to you and your wife. That such incarceration might not be unusual in japan, does not lessen the outrage.

My 1st thought was how could this happen in a civilised society, then I answered my question... that it happens means that it is not a civilised society.

 

[sjk]

it is not a civilised society

It’s unfortunate that things keep descending to this level of discourse.

I can understand all too well how this sort of thing could happen and have sympathy for both sides. Given my own background I am by no means a champion of Japan’s attitude towards ‘others’ but I doubt that played all that much into things here.

 

[travelislife]

What a horrible story, I am really interested to understand where/if your travel insurance came in to play here? Covers the fine? Lawyer costs? Etc.?

It is just crazy to me that someone is detained over an accident where no one has died or been permanently impaired. Details of parties and insurers should be enough for it all to be sorted out?

 

[skilad]

@drron I have worked for a long time in media. I'm not a fan of News Corp but they have their uses and I have no doubt news.com.au would lap this up. It would be a lead story on their website and they'd give it a huge run with a national audience.

You would probably get a more subtle story though the ABC or SMH, and perhaps go through one of their Asian based correspondence who I'd think would do some local follow up.

Ultimately it depends what you want to achieve. A big splash detailing the horrors and the flipside of the Japanese tourism surge or something a bit more nuanced.

 

[Jenya]

All this prompted me to take out travel insurance for upcoming family trip to Vanuatu.
This benefit value of 5 mil AUD for personal liability surely will be enough to cover all OP's expenses.
Really interested to see how its all played out in this case.

 

[kyle]

All this prompted me to take out travel insurance for upcoming family trip to Vanuatu.
This benefit value of 5 mil AUD for personal liability surely will be enough to cover all OP's expenses.
Really interested to see how its all played out in this case.

View attachment 404202

But then if it's the result of breaking the law as in this case, then the insurer probably won't pay out

 

[Justinf]

Only just came across this.
Wow.
I was both repulsed and equally fascinated by your story.
As a journalist myself, @drron you write very well.
I’m wondering how much out of pocket you are?
Surely we here can arrange a gofundme yo help? I think nearly everyone on here would like to help in some way.

 

[travelislife]

But then if it's the result of breaking the law as in this case, then the insurer probably won't pay out

I understand what you are saying, but normally with traffic accidents there is an at fault party, but insurance still pays out unless you are say drunk. But just because a road rule was broken and you were at fault doesn’t stop insurer paying? Or have I got that wrong in Aus…?

 

[muppet]

I understand what you are saying, but normally with traffic accidents there is an at fault party, but insurance still pays out unless you are say drunk. But just because a road rule was broken and you were at fault doesn’t stop insurer paying? Or have I got that wrong in Aus…?

There’s almost no such thing as a genuine “accident”. Pretty much every crash has a rule breaker - insurance would therefore never pay. Pretty sure ‘under the influence’ is the only one that voids insurance.

 

[Happy Dude]

There’s almost no such thing as a genuine “accident”. Pretty much every crash has a rule breaker - insurance would therefore never pay. Pretty sure ‘under the influence’ is the only one that voids insurance.

Not being adequately licenced would be another. A quick look at the pds would reveal if coverage was or wasn't provided for being "at fault".

 

[justinbrett]

My 1st thought was how could this happen in a civilised society, then I answered my question... that it happens means that it is not a civilised society.

You could say this about almost any country. Most Middle Eastern countries have even stricter laws and much harsher penalties. I know many here have no problems visiting Doha or Dubai, and most visits go without incident, as do most visits to Japan.

Even our own country, the fact you can be sued for a Facebook post would seem quite dystopian to others.

I’m sure if something like this happened to me I’d be traumatised and never want to return to that country, but the sad fact is many countries, even ones we call developed, do not share our ideas of human rights. Possibly even our own.