The practice of cancelling ticketed flights when flights delayed or cancelled.

[Spike_T]

How is over selling flights legal? Why are airlines allowed to sell more seats than they have on a scheduled service vs other businesses? We don't tolerate theatres or sporting venues selling more seats than the venue hold.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

How is over selling flights legal? Why are airlines allowed to sell more seats than they have on a scheduled service vs other businesses? We don't tolerate theatres or sporting venues selling more seats than the venue hold.

It's perfectly legal and environmentally friendly since it ensures no seat is left unfilled. What is key is how airlines compensate you for overbooking. If Qantas told passengers, anyone willing to get bumped off this flight will get $1000 cash plus booked on the next flight departing in a few hours, there would be a number of takers. And in case you're wondering how the airlines can afford to pay several thousand dollars to compensate passengers - those last seats they sell on an airplane can be quite pricey!

-RooFlyer88

 

[NM]

How is over selling flights legal? Why are airlines allowed to sell more seats than they have on a scheduled service vs other businesses? We don't tolerate theatres or sporting venues selling more seats than the venue hold.

Note that the term "oversold" does not always mean that they sold more tickets than seats on the aircraft. There are many situations that result in the term "oversold" being used, including:

• Operational requirement to change the aircraft type. This can happen if a flight was originally planned to be operated by say an A330-300 and that aircraft has a technical fault that means the aircraft must be substituted by an A330-200. Now we have a situation where there may be more ticketed passengers than the operating aircraft has seats. This would be termed an "oversold" condition.
• One flight is cancelled, and its passengers moved onto later flights. So now the next flight may have a "waitlist" of passengers hoping to get on the next flight rather than an even later one. That flight would now be considered "oversold" even though the airline never marketed more tickets for that flight than there were seats on the aircraft.

The first of those examples would be like an AFL game being planned for the MCG where they sold, say, 80,000 tickets. But due to some problem (a fire, flood, problems with the ground surface etc.) the game has to be moved to Marvel stadium and now only 53,000 people can attend. While this scenario may not have every occurred in reality, it could and would be same problem for many ticket holders.

Of course there are situations where airlines sell more tickets than seats, relying on a proportion of passengers being "no-shows". This is very common practice in places like the USA. Less common in Australia. It is more common for a specific cabin to be oversold, resulting in some passengers receiving an operational upgrade. But most situations that are refered to as being oversold are not the result of selling more tickets than seats, but due to situations like the two points above. This does not make it any less problematic for people who are impacted, but is not caused by selling more seats than they planned to operate for the flight.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

How is over selling flights legal? Why are airlines allowed to sell more seats than they have on a scheduled service vs other businesses? We don't tolerate theatres or sporting venues selling more seats than the venue hold.

It’s only ‘legal’ because of long-standing industry practice, dating back to the 50s and 60s - at a time when fares were fully flexible and fully refundable and people travelling on business would sometimes book multiple flights, with the intention of selecting which flight they would take on the day of travel.

Planes were smaller back then, and frequencies were nothing like today. So airlines were finding they were leaving with empty seats… hence overselling.

I think it is outdated now, and should be reviewed. EU/UK261 doesn’t outlaw it, but it makes it unappealing for airlines, who must pay 75% of the fare as downgrade compensation, or a significant dollar penalty if the passenger can’t reach their destination within a certain time.

At the very least, those on non refundable fares should have their seats guaranteed… and no… a $99 change fee and ‘equal or higher fare’ does *not* equal ticket flexibility IMO. Some airlines are arguing all their tickets are flexible because of clauses like that!

 

[kangarooflyer88]

At the very least, those on non refundable fares should have their seats guaranteed… and no… a $99 change fee and ‘equal or higher fare’ does *not* equal ticket flexibility IMO. Some airlines are arguing all their tickets are flexible because of clauses like that!

My understanding (perhaps mistaken) is that when the airline changes or cancels your flight significantly, your ticket becomes fully flexible which is to say you can change the date (within reason) to whatever date/time you want provided there is space available in the cabin or alternatively request a full refund. Perhaps this notion is outdated, or only relevant to specific markets like Europe and the Americas.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

My understanding (perhaps mistaken) is that when the airline changes or cancels your flight significantly, your ticket becomes fully flexible which is to say you can change the date (within reason) to whatever date/time you want provided there is space available in the cabin or alternatively request a full refund. Perhaps this notion is outdated, or only relevant to specific markets like Europe and the Americas.

It depends on the terms and conditions, which will vary by airline.

Qantas’ policy is to accommodate you in the same cabin on the next available service, or an alternative service that is suitable for you. This also means that regardless of your paid fare, Qantas may ‘upgrade’ that fare to the next available fare bucket for the class you have booked. So in a way, significant flexibility.

However, not all airlines are as accommodating. And some have limits on the new dates you can choose. It might be within 24 or 48 hours… you might not be able to choose a flight weeks or months away.

 

[JohnK]

Apply the same scenario I posted earlier where I turn up for my flight out of Thailand (or any other foreign country) the day my visa expires to be told flight has been oversold and no availability for 2-3 days.

What now? I'm an overstayer and potential heavy penalties. Airline assumes zero responsibility.

The responsibility of the airline should be to provide the service they accepted to provide and if they don't then compensation should be harsh so they stop doing it or manage it better.

If you want to be in the business of running an airline the customer has to be the number 1 focus.

 

[OATEK]

Apply the same scenario I posted earlier where I turn up for my flight out of Thailand (or any other foreign country) the day my visa expires to be told flight has been oversold and no availability for 2-3 days.

What now? I'm an overstayer and potential heavy penalties. Airline assumes zero responsibility.

The responsibility of the airline should be to provide the service they accepted to provide and if they don't then compensation should be harsh so they stop doing it or manage it better.

If you want to be in the business of running an airline the customer has to be the number 1 focus.

I don't think the average traveller would wait until the last day on their visa to leave. The airline may have a range of reasons why they cannot carry you on a flight, and in that case the risk you took in leaving so late becomes an issue. This is probably no different to past stories where people were flying home the day before an important specialist consultation that would not be rescheduled for months.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Apply the same scenario I posted earlier where I turn up for my flight out of Thailand (or any other foreign country) the day my visa expires to be told flight has been oversold and no availability for 2-3 days.

What now? I'm an overstayer and potential heavy penalties. Airline assumes zero responsibility.

Not necessarily! Stay in the international transit zone and you are technically not in Thailand. That being said, it is always advisable to leave at least a couple of days before the Visa expires. Putting it off to the last minute is reckless. I mean, what if you were to get sick on the day you were scheduled to depart? Overstay!

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Not necessarily! Stay in the international transit zone and you are technically not in Thailand. That being said, it is always advisable to leave at least a couple of days before the Visa expires. Putting it off to the last minute is reckless. I mean, what if you were to get sick on the day you were scheduled to depart? Overstay!

-RooFlyer88

Many countries provide an exception to visa requirements of an involuntary nature, such as flight cancellation or illness. Even China, surprisingly. The exemption is usually invoked for day-of-travel irrops only… not cancellations in advance.

 

[serfty]

I don't think the average traveller would wait until the last day on their visa to leave

Many a "backpacker" enjoying thier sojourn in 《insert cheap country to live in》would consider this statement to be not reflective of thier reality.

 

[JohnK]

I don't think the average traveller would wait until the last day on their visa to leave. The airline may have a range of reasons why they cannot carry you on a flight, and in that case the risk you took in leaving so late becomes an issue. This is probably no different to past stories where people were flying home the day before an important specialist consultation that would not be rescheduled for months.

I know quite a few people that max out their visa. If I knew in advance I could just do a visa run across the border like many do. These 2 trips I needed extra time but you're probably right I should have planned to leave the day before visa expires.

And travel has changed considerably. I've been on AFF since 2005 and have not heard or experienced this many issues in such a short time. I've had quite a few cancellations out of BKK in the past but each time the airline found alternate flights/routes. The norm now seems to be to strand the passenger where possible which is not a good sign.

I've also heard that Thailand is adding 50% to visa free stays soon but not sure how long that will last. So you'd get 45 days not 30 days.

 

[OATEK]

Many a "backpacker" enjoying thier sojourn in 《insert cheap country to live in》would consider this statement to be not reflective of thier reality.

But are they average?

Seriously though, my SIL is a German national, and she like Johnk had to leave my brother before her visa ran out. She would then go offshore to re-apply, knowing that an overstay might affect her application for residency down the track. I guess she is my yardstick when looking at the difficulties of international marriages/relationships and visas, and associated risks around flight cancellations or over-selling.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I know quite a few people that max out their visa. If I knew in advance I could just do a visa run across the border like many do. These 2 trips I needed extra time but you're probably right I should have planned to leave the day before visa expires.

And travel has changed considerably. I've been on AFF since 2005 and have not heard or experienced this many issues in such a short time. I've had quite a few cancellations out of BKK in the past but each time the airline found alternate flights/routes. The norm now seems to be to strand the passenger where possible which is not a good sign.

I've also heard that Thailand is adding 50% to visa free stays soon but not sure how long that will last. So you'd get 45 days not 30 days.

Challenging times with covid… fewer flights and those operating are often packed. Doesn’t leave much wiggle room.

 

[Seat0B]

I agree 100% with everything in your post.

Kick off a campaign, promote it, get the general public onboard - and ask them to start lobbying their elected pollies!

How do we start?

I’ll join in too @MEL_Traveller. Why don’t you start a thread, publish your ideas and others can join in too as a concerted campaign.

 

[jrfsp]

I’ll join in too @MEL_Traveller. Why don’t you start a thread, publish your ideas and others can join in too as a concerted campaign.

Qantas warns of testing times as Australians jet off for holidays

As Australians board planes for long weekends, school holidays and footy finals, airlines are facing calls from consumer advocates to guarantee compensation for flight delays and cancellations.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Seat0B]

Qantas warns of testing times as Australians jet off for holidays

As Australians board planes for long weekends, school holidays and footy finals, airlines are facing calls from consumer advocates to guarantee compensation for flight delays and cancellations.

www.abc.net.au

Let’s all jump on board.

 

[oz_mark]

People certainly got stung overstay fees in Indonesia when Jetstar cancelled a bunch of flights.

 

[JohnK]

People certainly got stung overstay fees in Indonesia when Jetstar cancelled a bunch of flights.

Didn't cross my mind when I planned/booked this trip in June or even when I arrived here last month. Now seems like a silly idea departing on the day visa expires.

Need to work on getting spouse visa.

 

[Blackswan]

So I saw on the Australian Aviation Thread on Airliners.Net that there is currently a petition with the Parliament of Australia, to introduce passenger safegaurds/protections similar to EU-261.

Given it's a petition with the Federal Government (and not a Change.Org style action), I've signed it.

Details as follows;

e-petitions

e-petitions

www.aph.gov.au