The safety of LCCs

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. Not all airlines in Australia operate to the same set of standards, they don't have to.

Not quite true, all airlines are required to meet the standards set by the CAR's, which are the same for everybody as a rule unless dispensations are granted by CASA. They are all required to fly the same approach paths, have certified crew and aircraft and meet operational standards to a certain mandated level, in theory ;)
 
I think you'll find Areopelican for example doesn't need to meet the same requirements as Qantas, although they fly the same flight path and any of us can go and buy a ticket for a flight there are differences between commercial airlines in Australia.

Just because we can buy a ticket on a commercial airline in Australia does not mean they all operate to the same level of safety management system both as an operator or an accredited aircraft maintainer.

markis10, yes airlines are required to meet standards, but the standards differ depending on the "class/type" of airline. It isn't one standard fits all.​

Matt
 
markis10, yes airlines are required to meet standards, but the standards differ depending on the "class/type" of airline. It isn't one standard fits all.​

Matt


Not sure what you mean by that, under the CARs there is no difference in the standards for QF or Aeropelican in terms of provision of an RPT service, there is a difference if they operate different aircraft categories.
 
Great pick-up!

maybe time to revisit the seatbelts/noise cancelling headphone threads again - how many of us were saying that rules such as mobie phones being off were VITALLY important to the safety of the aircraft. And that comments by non-experts as to the dangers of mobile phones (or lack thereof) were 'out of place' because only experts know how dangerus these things are and the ordinary passenger knows nothing.

Well I guess the JQ incident shows that mobile phones ARE indeed a safety hazard while flying - they could interfere with operation of the aircraft... BY THE FLIGHT CREW. :mrgreen:
Nonsense ! :evil:

MEL_Traveller, you are very good at throwing hand grenades from a zero or low knowledge base. Do you really have knowledge of this subject or are you stating what seems obvious on the surface :?:

The JQ pilot should not have been texting near the ground as it would be in breach of procedures and at a time when his attention should have been elsewhere. Nobody is going to argue against that.

Do you know however if the airline has a list of intrinsically safe mobile phones :?: Is it possible that they might even issue to their crews for use if needed :?:

I don't know either BUT it is possible. Just as using mobile phones in a hospital is not allowed yet hospital staff carry and use mobiles all the time. How and why :?: The hospital staff member has an approved mobile phone and has the knowledge to of where and when they may use the phones. You and I do not have that knowledge.
 
I think you'll find Areopelican for example doesn't need to meet the same requirements as Qantas, although they fly the same flight path and any of us can go and buy a ticket for a flight there are differences between commercial airlines in Australia.
What differences are there in the requirements :?:

Just because we can buy a ticket on a commercial airline in Australia does not mean they all operate to the same level of safety management system both as an operator or an accredited aircraft maintainer.
They all need to operate to a minimum level of safety management system though.


markis10, yes airlines are required to meet standards, but the standards differ depending on the "class/type" of airline. It isn't one standard fits all.
What differences are there in the standards :?:
 
Nonsense ! :evil:

MEL_Traveller, you are very good at throwing hand grenades from a zero or low knowledge base. Do you really have knowledge of this subject or are you stating what seems obvious on the surface :?:

The JQ pilot should not have been texting near the ground as it would be in breach of procedures and at a time when his attention should have been elsewhere. Nobody is going to argue against that.

Do you know however if the airline has a list of intrinsically safe mobile phones :?: Is it possible that they might even issue to their crews for use if needed :?:

I don't know either BUT it is possible. Just as using mobile phones in a hospital is not allowed yet hospital staff carry and use mobiles all the time. How and why :?: The hospital staff member has an approved mobile phone and has the knowledge to of where and when they may use the phones. You and I do not have that knowledge.

Hi straitman - my post was clearly partly tongue-in-cheek - finally providing some 'real' evidence that mobile phones can be dangerous in flight... if used by the flightdeck crew just prior to landing.

My posts are not so much about 'lobbing grenades' but more about challenging preconveived ideas.

On mobile phones we know that probably every flight takes off with a mobilee phone (or several) left on... accidentally of course but probably still highly likely.

We also know that by and large that doesn't seem to affect aircraft operations.

Then there is the argument that there could be noise interference (like leaving a phone near a radio at home) - and that interference could be, possibly, heard through flightdeck headphones. Well now it seems that textingand mobil phone use has occured IN the flightdeck.

One possibility is that there is a pre-approved list of phones that do not interfere. But then why not issue that list to passengers?

The answer to that is that there are other reasons why you wouldnn't want people phoning while in close proximity to the ground - including that theuir attention is on safety and not with their phone. Fair enough - then just tell the passengers that rather than something else.

Rules and regulations generally get credibility if people undersstand them.

And then me challening the requirement about crew member instructions. Someone posted that the seatbelt sign was left on while refuelling occured.

Blindly following an instruction like that could have serious impacts. Knowing that I don't have to follow that sign (left on in error) and having the confidence to challenge that sign could lead to me exiting the aircraft alive and someone else not.

Since we had the initial discusion on following crewmember instructions I found other legislation which deals with crew member isntructions in an emergency. Those regulations state, for example, that a crew member may 'request, but NOT require' a passenger to assist in an emergency.

So my point is directly supported by legislation - that you only have to follow lawful crew member instructions. Of course it help to know what is lawful and what is not, and that is why we were exploring some different scenarios... (such as window bllinds during the movie, or moving seats to purely allow a POS more comfort).

Am I likely to comply with a crew memer instruction? Of course I am. But there might just be one day when not doing so saves my life.
 
We also know that by and large that doesn't seem to affect aircraft operations..


Are you aware of the number of incidents attributed and/or suspected of being attributed to mobile phone based EMI in an aviation context?

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2001/jul/58.pdf

Things are getting better as we use newer aircraft that have been designed with todays devices in mind, however dont forget we are still flying on occasion in 20+ year old aircraft, and we still drive to work on freeways with drivers busy concentrating on their phones, luckily our airways are not as congested with pilots focused on their phones.

If you have worked in Aviation you would understand the zero tolerance to even the smallest risk, in many ways even a 1 in billion risk is not acceptable.
 
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Are you aware of the number of incidents attributed and/or suspected of being attributed to mobile phone based EMI in an aviation context?

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2001/jul/58.pdf

If you have worked in Aviation you would understand the zero tolerance to even the smallest risk, in many ways even a 1 in billion risk is not acceptable.

Thanks for the article! Certainly interesting reading. It is difficult to reconcile parts of the article... in one case there is a direct link between a phone ringing and autopilot disengaging... but that was from a phone in the flightdeck. Now if there is supposed to be zero tollerance then why are there not pre-flight checks which require flight deck crew to ensure their phone is turned off? (maybe there are now... but the recent alleged texting incident might suggest otherwise).

Then there is the issue that boeing couldn't replicate interference during tests. Many aviation accidents are solved through exact repliaction of the incident. Then it is confirmed and appropriate steps are taken. How can they be sure, for example, that the electrical fault (fire warning) was caused by the phone or whatever it was? Could have been a plain electrical malfunction.

I'm not arguing that in flight, mobiles and other transmitting devices should be switched off. As you say, miniscule chance is not worth taking the risk. And phones don't work anyuway.

But none of those issues are presented immediately after landing which I think was one issue raised. As far as I am aware, once the plane is off the runway then I really can't see the point about people getting exercised whether their fellow passengers are using the phonne before they are told they can.

Would I switch on before I was given the all clear? No. But would I get upset or cross with someone who did? Again no.
 
I think you'll find Areopelican for example doesn't need to meet the same requirements as Qantas, although they fly the same flight path and any of us can go and buy a ticket for a flight there are differences between commercial airlines in Australia.

Just because we can buy a ticket on a commercial airline in Australia does not mean they all operate to the same level of safety management system both as an operator or an accredited aircraft maintainer.

markis10, yes airlines are required to meet standards, but the standards differ depending on the "class/type" of airline. It isn't one standard fits all.​

Matt

Matt as already pointed out AOC holders must conform to the same safety standards as set down in the CAR's and CAO's.

If QF choose to operate above and beyond those standards, that is their choice. But the rules are the same for QF, AeroPelican and even King Island Air.
 
What differences are there in the requirements :?:

They all need to operate to a minimum level of safety management system though.



What differences are there in the standards :?:


Bill, just have some proper work work to do (I doubt my boss thinks like us that AFF is work) but will reply! :)

Matt
 
Are you aware of the number of incidents attributed and/or suspected of being attributed to mobile phone based EMI in an aviation context?

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2001/jul/58.pdf

Things are getting better as we use newer aircraft that have been designed with todays devices in mind, however dont forget we are still flying on occasion in 20+ year old aircraft, and we still drive to work on freeways with drivers busy concentrating on their phones, luckily our airways are not as congested with pilots focused on their phones.

If you have worked in Aviation you would understand the zero tolerance to even the smallest risk, in many ways even a 1 in billion risk is not acceptable.
I have anothert article that actually raises many questions which is why the issue actually exists. I do not have an electronic copy but will scan and forward to anyone interested after I get home.
 
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